A look at the BAE/IVECO Super AV 8x8.

Super AV 8x8 with unknown cannon mount.  It is not listed on the OtoMelera website although it bears a similarity to the HitFist OWS 30mm

The Super AV 8x8.

The mystery vehicle in the Marine Personnel Carrier Program.  Thanks to go to Sarah with the BAE Public Affairs Office for forwarding my questions to the Team working on this vehicle and my sincere thanks to them for answering.  The written interview will be discussed but first a few personal observations and a bit of speculation.

click on image for larger size.

click on image for larger size.

First observation.  The Super AV 8x8 in my estimation has already been trialed to some extent by Iveco's work on the Brazilian VBTP.  This vehicle is amphibious (to a high degree), is capable of carrying 11 troops and is can carry a variety of weapon systems (its been seen with Elbit's 30mm RWS...same as the one trialed on the AAV by BAE).

Perhaps more importantly, this vehicle is derived from the Freccia which was itself derived from the Centaur.  In essence they have developed a series of vehicles that share common automotive components, drive trains etc...

This should enable BAE/Iveco to be extremely competitive if this comes down to a cost battle.  Additionally the Italians have a strong showing in the amphibious vehicle area.  Just a look at what's been done with the old M-113 by Aris shows that they are first rate in this department.

But back to the Super AV 8x8.

Compare the above photo with the one below.

Unfortunately I don't know the date that these photos were taken but the top one indicates that some type of modular armor is going to part of BAE/Iveco's bid.  But perhaps the best indication is this.  They're working with IBD-Deisenroth Engineering.  On their website they list the armor that's going into the Super AV 8x8 as being 4th generation.  They demonstrated an LMV that had STANAG 4569 Level 4 protection due to 'new ceramic' armor.  The Super AV 8x8 has undergone ballistics testing with the Italian Army so it should be competitive in this arena.

Last of my speculation goes to weapons mount.  I have absolutely no idea what they'll offer to the Marine Corps but that turret ring looks like you could mount anything short of the US Army's 105mm MGS on it.

But enough of my guessing.  Below are my questions to the BAE/Iveco team.  My questions are in black, the teams responses are in red and my commentary is in blue.

*** All responses other than Question 3 should be attributed to John Swift, BAE Systems, MPC Program Manger. The response to Question 3 should be attributed to Håkan Karlsson, BAE Systems Hägglunds AB, Director, Marketing Communications.***

     The USMC seems to be slow-walking the MPC effort.  As a matter of fact, only a week or so ago did the revised RFP come out. Do you see the same issues with the failed EFV program creeping into the MPC program?  To be specific, it appeared that for once the Marines seemed to have a lack of institutional focus on the program and did not apply the proper amount of urgency to its completion.

We stand ready to support the entire USMC portfolio of amphibious vehicles during the acquisition phase for each platform. The key to a successful vehicle acquisition program is rooted in quantifiable and discreet requirements that are ultimately validated to be achievable within the industry. We are confident that BAE Systems has a role in any such amphibious vehicle program and as we see them today, these include the AAV U, ACV and MPC. We support the USMC’s current efforts to fully vet and validate the requirements for each of these efforts before determining the appropriate acquisition approach each may need to support the overall portfolio.

OK, my bad!  Who do I think I am?  Bill Sweetman?  Just joking Bill, but seriously, I don't have the street cred, experience or evidently the common sense not to ask such a question to a contractor trying to win a contract from a customer.  I let my personal anger at the Marine Corps ground procurement system creep into my questions.  Big time mea culpa.

       BAE has an extremely strong design bureau.  The RG41 and RG35 are just two examples of vehicles built in house that surprised the industry and are tailored to market demand.  Why didn't BAE go with a clean-sheet, in-house design instead of teaming with IVECO?

IVECO possesses a sound amphibious engineering design that, once evaluated, proved easily adaptable to meet known MPC requirements. It only made sense to unite the two engineering efforts to a single effort in support of MPC. The requirements set by the Italian MoD were remarkably similar to what we understood the MPC requirements to be. The RG31 and 35 were not purpose built for an amphibious requirement.

If I had done my home work on Iveco before I sent in these questions this is another that would have been formulated differently.  Hmmm.  These guys are schooling me.

      Speaking of in-house designs, I'm a fan of the SEP, now renamed Alligator.  What metrics were performed to indicate that it did not meet Marine Corps specifications?

At the time of the initial USG MPC candidate vehicle assessment, the SEP was not yet fully mature to a level for which the Marine Corps wanted an amphibious off-the-shelf 8x8 solution.

    To the issue of the Iveco Super AV...  Many think that it’s simply an off-shoot of Freccia.  Is that true?

Although the Super AV shares several automotive assemblies with the Freccia, they are not the same vehicle. The Super AV incorporates a newly designed hull structure with added survivability considerations in addition to incorporation of features necessary to make it a vehicle fully capable of shore-to-shore and ship-to-shore transit in the open ocean.

       Little is known about the Super AV.  Articles are sparse and you're keeping it under wraps. Is this by design?  If so, why?  (BAE has been very forthcoming with other vehicles in its stable, and, as a matter of fact, the GCV has its own website.)

 Currently, the adaptation of the Super AV is for the singular MPC effort, and we haven’t socialized its capability beyond this audience. We will plan to do so when appropriate. 

 Performance characteristics for the Super AV are difficult to nail down.  What is the estimated speed in water and how high a surf can it withstand?  Projected land speed?  Has it undergone ballistics tests?  Ship board compatibility?

·      Up to 6 knots

·      Capable of sea state 2-3

·      Land speed of 65 mph

·      Has undergone a series of ballistic testing

·      Has completed shipboard compatibility evaluation with the Italian Navy

Absolutley brilliant Sol.  You asked a question that you KNOW they're not going to let out of the bag!  Detail performance specs!  And the response is the baseline performance characteristics outlined by the Marines.  I wish they were in the room with me.  The looks I would have gotten would reveal exactly how stupid I was for asking it.

Weapon systems are also a mystery.  In the few photos available on the web, it appears to be sporting a 25mm cannon along with a TOW launcher similar to what's seen on the Bradley.  Is this correct or just provisional?

Currently we have designed the vehicle to accept the interfaces necessary for RWS integration. A medium caliber cannon could just as easily be integrated, but we have not yet determined a valid requirement to do so.

Lockheed Martin's Team Havoc has had its vehicle out to Camp Pendleton for hands on sessions with Marines.  Does your team plan on doing the same?

The BAE Systems MPC Team will indeed do so as may be deemed appropriate by the USG. Internal BAE Systems demonstrations have been conducted before several USG audiences and we will be scheduling more in the future.

  Is there anything you would like to add?

BAE Systems and IVECO are well positioned to offer a world class amphibious wheeled 8x8 vehicle that is unique and capable in its proven balance of survivability and mobility, for which its amphibious performance is paramount.

Wow.

All in all I'm particularly thankful.  First BAE/Iveco took the time to answer my questions.  Second, they EDUCATED me on trade craft.  Lastly they gave a quick glimpse into the program.

But even better than all that is this.  I know who to go to inside that organization.  I know that they're knowledgeable, courteous and will give out as much info as they feel is possible to the general public.  I'll give it a month or so and I'll make another run at this design team with a much better set of questions....but in the meantime I'm going to research a lot more and I've gotta pack my bags too.  Marine West here I come.