via Haaretz.com
Defense Minister Ehud Barak approved the purchase of 20 F-35 fighter planes for the Israel Air Force on Sunday.So another win to offset any losses and we still have Singapore, Japan, S. Korea and a possible additional set of purchases from Australia for their LHD to look forward to.
The planes, manufactured by the American company Lockheed Martin, are expected to be delivered to Israel between 2015 and 2017.
Barak's approval of the $2.7 billion deal came after more than two years of tough talks between the Israeli defense establishment, the U.S. Pentagon, and Lockheed Martin.
Game, set, and match...the F-35 has already seen more success than the F-22.
$2.7 billion deal (of AMERICAN help to Israel money!)
ReplyDeleteSO WHAT?!!?
Israel will not even pay one dollar for those F-35's!
All is USA military HELP to Israel money only!
And WHERE is the "F-35 critics read this and weep" part?
You are DESPERATE...
not hardly but your response to the fact that the Israeli's are purchasing this airplane does smack of desperation.
ReplyDeletethanks for trying...do play again.
So we assume that @ $107M is inclusive of spares, etc which would be in line with the premiums paid by most other countries.
ReplyDeleteWould Israel feel any need for the V/STOL capability? If not then the standard A model would be the one involved here (its not specified). 20 is a low number for a fleet though, we should expect follow-up orders in the future as money becomes available. I would personally expect somewhere between 80-100 frames to supplement the F-16 in strike roles by the 2020 - 2025 mark.
Good news for the program, it will be interesting to see what engine they choose though (IF the F-136 ever becomes a viable option).
and that's the other side of this coin Ron.
ReplyDeleteBoeing hoped that the Israeli's would sign on to the F-15 Silent Eagle as an alternative but they didn't. this is more than a win for the F-35, its practically a death blow to the Silent Eagle.
the Saudi's aren't buying the Silent Eagle version and even if they did it would definitely be detuned to such a degree as to be equal to the current model (well maybe the radar would be of a superior version) but you get the point.
Lockheed Martin 2, Boeing 0. F-35 critics...-0001
so what model are they buying?
ReplyDeletemy assumption is the 'A' model but hold on if its the 'B' cause its really all over for the critics then!
ReplyDeletethey're already bending the cost curve for the A and if additional orders for the B can be confirmed then the same will happen to the most complex of the models.....the impossible could actually happen...the C model could compete for the most expensive version (i'm basing that on the size of the order and the idea that Singapore, S. Korea and Australia will also be buying B versions to operate off the aircraft carrier of the 22nd century...the LHD).
To be fair, Israel requested to purchase F-22s back in the day, but the US government won't agree to export them. So we settled for F-35s.
ReplyDeleteto be fair the Israeli's could have settled for the F-15 Silent Eagle or even an advanced F-15I, the Typhoon (the Europeans would have offered attractive set asides, costs savings etc), the Rafale (same as the Typhoon) or even partnered with the Russians on the PAK-FA T-50.
ReplyDeletethey chose the F-35 instead.
True enough. We wanted something with stealth that's a little better than an F15 retread. Buying a European jet would have caused political problems - assuming the Europeans would actually sell them to us - and anyway those planes aren't stealthy. The F-22 was our first choice, as it was for the Australians and the Japanese. So what is in the Raptor that isn't in the Lightning II that would cause the US government to ban the F22's overseas sales?
ReplyDeletenot sure. the avionics in the F-35 are clearly superior. the aerodynamic advantage that the F-22 has is the product of twin engines and bigger wings, not anything that the Russians or the Europeans aren't capable of imitating so i guess it comes back to stealth.
ReplyDeletebut i'm not sure how good the stealth is.
If you already have the notice delete the post
ReplyDeletehttp://www.defense-update.com/features/2010/august/f-35i_15082010.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+DefenseUpdate+(Defense+Update)
delete the post :The notice is in your blog list.I should read before post.Sorry
ReplyDelete@ Jon - The F-22 offers a type of RAM coating and advanced all aspect stealth shaping that the F-35 omitted when it became clear that it would never be needed in the real world. The cost and maintainence issues the RAM especially added was not justifiable for a bread & butter aircraft like the F-35.
ReplyDeleteAs Solomon points out the F-35 has much more advanced systems and engine as a result of the nearly 20 year development gap between the two planes.
The F-22's advantages currently stand as this:
- Better All Aspect Stealth
- Better A-A Performance and Maneuverability
- Proven Supercruise (The advantages here are debatable)
- Better Radar (The F-22 has one of the first AESA radars used on fighters. It is still better than the F-35's mainly because the F-22's larger nose allows for a bigger radome hence better range and targeting ability)
The MAIN reason the F-22 export was banned was because when it came out systems like the AESA radar, RAM coatings and supercruise capable engines were still new and US exclusive. In fact they are still rare, with NG and LM dominating the world-wide field. The concern with exports was that the technology would leak and the F-22 would lose its main advantages.
But make no mistake, even the F-35 sold to foreign customers is going to be heavily watered down for the US military version, especially when it comes to the stealth and systems. Still better than nothing though...
Just spotted a typo in my post above, the last paragraph it should read:
ReplyDelete"...even the F-35 sold to foreign customers is going to be heavily watered down FROM the US military version..."
Sorry for the double post
Thanks Ron. As you say, better than nothing.
ReplyDeleteSo how long before they sell the details to the Chinese?
ReplyDelete@ Matthew - I don't think the Israeli's are going to screw around with this. The whole point of getting the tech is that its exclusive and gives them an edge. The previous 'leaks' to the chinks were of local tech, with the Phalcon and such, which was meant for foreign sale anyway, nothing secret there. You don't see them selling merkava's to the chinese do you
ReplyDeleteRon,
ReplyDeletePartner nations in F-35 program are NOT getting a "watered down" version. That is what the whole "source code" issue is about.
F-35's are F-35's. They won't be any different and those rolling off the production line might be RAAF jets, RCAF jets or USAF jets. You only need to look at RAAF's Super Hornets to see that modern production fighter programs don't have the production capacity to provide "watered down" aircraft.
The first 6x Super Hornet jets were actually pre-ordered USN birds that were actually provided to Australia in preference to USN, to help "seal the deal" because of Australia's rapid in-service requirement for these aircraft.
Now you can speculate all you want, but L-M has one production line. One paint shop and all the jets, no matter who buys them, comes through both of them. If you think internal structures, RAM and painting processes are changing for "export" aircraft, you are failing to grasp the scope of what you are actually suggesting.
If there is ANY watering down of capability, it is in electronic warfare and radar capability. Not in airframe or low observable performance. Here's a video on the L-M paint shop. Now just consider the effort involved in re-configuring this in a constantly moving production line...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xViVk7Mj9Hs
They ain't changing this system to artificially lower the capability of export F-35's...
No no no...dude you are missing some information,
ReplyDeleteThe radar and systems are watered down in ALL export fighters yes. BUT in the case of the F-35 the one unique aspect is stealth. This is not L-M or indeed the Pentagon's call, the US Congress has legislated specific limits on what level of radar observability can provided. Export versions of the F-35 have a significantly different and higher radar cross section by default, no one has a choice in the matter.
The whole reason Boeing is deluding themselves with the F-15SE is that they feel they can offer the same level of stealth as the F-35 export. Non-sense of course, the F-15SE will only have front aspect stealth, but the point is that even then Boeing still needed Congressional approval to even pitch the specs to the Koreans, let alone sell it to them.
Deals like the F-18 are no longer good examples of US military sales when stealth and its associated elements get involved, thats a whole other cuppa