On paper, this would be an ideal conversion. Unfortunately, it seems it isn't as easy in practice.
These container ships aren't Ro-Ro vessels, meaning that they aren't build for shifting loads, like moving aircraft, vehicles and cargo around. You need a specialized trimming/balancing system, especially when underway during rough seas.
The container ship is also an empty "bucket", so installing a flightdeck requires serious structural reinforcements which in turn require a serious redesign.
Folks much smarter than me told me once that it was in fact simpler and cheaper to construct a new specialized (light) LHA than rebuilding a Maersk cargo ship - I found that odd, but then again, I'm no engineer.
THE major problem with the Maersk S-class conversion is Congress, they wrote a law which does NOT allow the Navy to buy a foreign built ship even if it is converted in a US shipyard.
The cost numbers I got from Maersk for an S-class conversion where one-quarter that for a new built amphib warship. The start point is its a sealfit ship and does not need all that crap and overhead which NAVSEA lays on. The presentation shows ALL the capabilities which the Marines dream about. If we descoped those, then the cost would be even lower. BTW that is an old configuration for the MLP. It no longer looks like that.
One-quarter, wow. Even if it is enhanced with all the necessary shiny USN/USCG kit it might still be under budget, especially if it remains under semi-civilian MSC/MPF control.
Just expanding on the earlier MLP/Flo-Flo post, here's a quick overview of the Dockwise fleet. See the Dockwiser online magazine for some heavy lifting. Our friend ThinkDefence may get a kick out of it too :)
let get something staight, the Atlantic Conveyor was a jury rigged ship for an emergent war, it is not related to modern sealift ships in MSC inventory. While having more deck area in a Flo/Flo is nice, one can get too big since it takes longer to sink them and they need more water under them. I actually think the something like the Transhelf (built for the Russians) or Swift would be adequate. If one has a clear deck, vessels can be loaded fore/aft or sideways (some overhang is possible). The Dock Express class offered a different set of advantages but they have been sold. I've worked with Dockwise before
Sol, leesea is right, Atlantic Conveyor was more of a transport than an operating vessel, just to get aircraft, helicopters and stores down south in the absence of alternatives. It was an excellent solution though, given the time pressure
Have a look on this clip, at about 32 minutes
More important was the Chinooks it was carrying, we only managed to get one off before it was hit so the operation had to make do with one, that one is still in service as well!
The urban legends about Atlantic Conveyor are notorious, enterprising storeman all over the world were informing the stores system that various items had been lost which when added up came to many times more than she could actually carry!
I have got the original Araphao booklet proposal~ I have said elsewhere that what might be considered is a T-AKV type ship which were naval auxiliaries that merely transported aircraft and had flight decks. There are a number of newer sealift ships in RRF which might be converted?
Once again, the S Class conversion had ALL the nice to have thigns in it which how the Marines got into trouble with their version of the MPF-F. The KISS principle must be applied to contain costs and operational reality IMHO!
I see specialized sealift ships as the Maersk S as complimentary to amphibs. The backup platforms or lily pads to sustain an op. For instance, the Ro/Ro cargo features are redundant to what already exists in amphibs and MPS. The troop lift is something the Marines stick on to every new idea. 1000 troops were in MLP orginal desing NOT now. Its a grand seabasing idea but personnel acomodations kick the cost drastically. Same for hospital spaces.
Ok let me add a few cargo related thoughts. Other than troops (flyig) ashore, the rest of wha is needed is cargo broken down usually by commodity class but in ship terms as follows: Marine tactical equipment - Ro/Ro aka rolling stock. Look at how amphibs internal are designed and how the MPS are built. With exception of LSDs there is a LOT of deck area available for Ro/Ro cargo. Some LCAC are primary haulers of Ro/Ro cargo although LCU can and do also. Provisions and ammo I lump together in the breakbulk category. While a log of Marines think that always comes in truck for any long term op, that cargo is moved by forklifts into landing craft like LCMs and slowly hauled ashore. 2 points: One amphibs do not have anywhere need the breakbulk cargp capacity of MPS and hence rely on those specialized sealift ships to lift, stow and distribute it. Secondly modern amphibs have virtuall NO means to Lo/Lo breakbulk cargo on/of of them. That is a major design fault in my mind. Especially if the wet well dock is inop of whatever reason. There is NO Plan B. Thirdly the Marines have to ask themselves do we need to move breakbulk cargo by relatively few hovercraft or by more numerous other lighterage like has been mentioned improved LCUs, Army LSV or L-Cat or PASCAT if one wants something faster. And where does one park all those other "vessels". My conclusion is that the Marines have significantly underestimated the need to move more breakbulk cargo ashore and how to do that. Next post will relate above to AFSB role
On paper, this would be an ideal conversion. Unfortunately, it seems it isn't as easy in practice.
ReplyDeleteThese container ships aren't Ro-Ro vessels, meaning that they aren't build for shifting loads, like moving aircraft, vehicles and cargo around. You need a specialized trimming/balancing system, especially when underway during rough seas.
The container ship is also an empty "bucket", so installing a flightdeck requires serious structural reinforcements which in turn require a serious redesign.
Folks much smarter than me told me once that it was in fact simpler and cheaper to construct a new specialized (light) LHA than rebuilding a Maersk cargo ship - I found that odd, but then again, I'm no engineer.
THE major problem with the Maersk S-class conversion is Congress, they wrote a law which does NOT allow the Navy to buy a foreign built ship even if it is converted in a US shipyard.
ReplyDeleteThe cost numbers I got from Maersk for an S-class conversion where one-quarter that for a new built amphib warship. The start point is its a sealfit ship and does not need all that crap and overhead which NAVSEA lays on. The presentation shows ALL the capabilities which the Marines dream about. If we descoped those, then the cost would be even lower. BTW that is an old configuration for the MLP. It no longer looks like that.
One-quarter, wow. Even if it is enhanced with all the necessary shiny USN/USCG kit it might still be under budget, especially if it remains under semi-civilian MSC/MPF control.
ReplyDeleteJust expanding on the earlier MLP/Flo-Flo post, here's a quick overview of the Dockwise fleet. See the Dockwiser online magazine for some heavy lifting. Our friend ThinkDefence may get a kick out of it too :)
http://www.dockwise.com/page/fleet.html
http://www.dockwise.com/page/dockwiser.html
The idea seemed to work with the SS Atlantic Conveyor... I mean it worked right up until it ate a pair of Exocets and sank.
ReplyDeleteHarriers even operated of the Atlantic Conveyor!
yeah but the Brits used the "Conveyor" almost in an assault ship role.
ReplyDeletethis conversion is to be used (at least in my mind) as part of the sea base.
speed, survivability is of lesser importance. carriage, interoperability are the primary drivers.
i personally like it.
let get something staight, the Atlantic Conveyor was a jury rigged ship for an emergent war, it is not related to modern sealift ships in MSC inventory.
ReplyDeleteWhile having more deck area in a Flo/Flo is nice, one can get too big since it takes longer to sink them and they need more water under them.
I actually think the something like the Transhelf (built for the Russians) or Swift would be adequate. If one has a clear deck, vessels can be loaded fore/aft or sideways (some overhang is possible).
The Dock Express class offered a different set of advantages but they have been sold.
I've worked with Dockwise before
Sol, leesea is right, Atlantic Conveyor was more of a transport than an operating vessel, just to get aircraft, helicopters and stores down south in the absence of alternatives. It was an excellent solution though, given the time pressure
ReplyDeleteHave a look on this clip, at about 32 minutes
More important was the Chinooks it was carrying, we only managed to get one off before it was hit so the operation had to make do with one, that one is still in service as well!
The urban legends about Atlantic Conveyor are notorious, enterprising storeman all over the world were informing the stores system that various items had been lost which when added up came to many times more than she could actually carry!
I have got the original Araphao booklet proposal~
ReplyDeleteI have said elsewhere that what might be considered is a T-AKV type ship which were naval auxiliaries that merely transported aircraft and had flight decks. There are a number of newer sealift ships in RRF which might be converted?
Once again, the S Class conversion had ALL the nice to have thigns in it which how the Marines got into trouble with their version of the MPF-F. The KISS principle must be applied to contain costs and operational reality IMHO!
I see specialized sealift ships as the Maersk S as complimentary to amphibs. The backup platforms or lily pads to sustain an op. For instance, the Ro/Ro cargo features are redundant to what already exists in amphibs and MPS. The troop lift is something the Marines stick on to every new idea. 1000 troops were in MLP orginal desing NOT now. Its a grand seabasing idea but personnel acomodations kick the cost drastically. Same for hospital spaces.
More about cargo in next post
Ok let me add a few cargo related thoughts. Other than troops (flyig) ashore, the rest of wha is needed is cargo broken down usually by commodity class but in ship terms as follows:
ReplyDeleteMarine tactical equipment - Ro/Ro aka rolling stock. Look at how amphibs internal are designed and how the MPS are built. With exception of LSDs there is a LOT of deck area available for Ro/Ro cargo. Some LCAC are primary haulers of Ro/Ro cargo although LCU can and do also.
Provisions and ammo I lump together in the breakbulk category. While a log of Marines think that always comes in truck for any long term op, that cargo is moved by forklifts into landing craft like LCMs and slowly hauled ashore. 2 points: One amphibs do not have anywhere need the breakbulk cargp capacity of MPS and hence rely on those specialized sealift ships to lift, stow and distribute it. Secondly modern amphibs have virtuall NO means to Lo/Lo breakbulk cargo on/of of them. That is a major design fault in my mind. Especially if the wet well dock is inop of whatever reason. There is NO Plan B.
Thirdly the Marines have to ask themselves do we need to move breakbulk cargo by relatively few hovercraft or by more numerous other lighterage like has been mentioned improved LCUs, Army LSV or L-Cat or PASCAT if one wants something faster. And where does one park all those other "vessels".
My conclusion is that the Marines have significantly underestimated the need to move more breakbulk cargo ashore and how to do that.
Next post will relate above to AFSB role