UPDATE: Check out the comment from the Speech Writer/Deputy Communications Director from the US House Armed Services Committee. BlackFive has the ears of policy makers on Capital Hill. I'm beyond impressed.
Gentlemen, I present to you the real truth on F-35 costs. Not the fantasy land dribble spouted by some, but the stone cold truth...and its from none other than one of the big boys on the internet when it comes to defense issue--- Black Five! I shamelessly post the article in its entirety here. Read it and weep F-35 critics.
If you've been paying attention to the battle for US air dominance, you might be, like me, a little wary of the comparisons and the rhetoric. Since there are numbers flying all over the place with regards to cost (mostly from PR firms), I thought we ought to take a look at what the REAL cost of an F-35 is...and we'll look at it in the same terms that the DoD/USAF use to evaluate the bids.Wow.
First, we need to talk in terms of 2010 dollars. We’re talking about what is known as the Unit Recurring Fly Away cost (URF) for a conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) variant (the type the Air Force is buying). In 2010 terms, it will cost about $65 million dollars.
Whoa, wait a minute, you say, I’ve seen costs as high as $110 million a copy!
I’m sure you have. But they don’t reflect the URF. Instead they may reflect the Total Ownership Cost (TOC) - the cost of everything necessary to operate the aircraft over the span of its service life - or any of a number of other costs used in the project for various purposes, but it won’t reflect the one we should be most concerned with, the URF.
Confused yet?
Think of buying a new car. You go in, look at the sticker price and ask the sales person, “how much will it cost me to drive this car off the lot?” He or she is going to give you a cost at or near the sticker price. You’re going to negotiate it down and, if you strike a deal, you’ll drive it off the lot for that negotiated price. That’s the URF in a nutshell.
With me so far?
But does that cost reflect the TOC?
Of course not.
Gas and oil. Extra cost. Maintenance. Extra cost. Extended warranty. Extra cost. Parts. Extra cost. Labor. Extra cost. New tires. Extra cost. Etc. In fact, if you take all of those costs associated with owning, driving and maintaining the car over the years you own it you’ll find that TOC to be significantly higher than the cost to drive it off the lot (URF).
Of course that’s the case for any fighter aircraft. However, in the media, the price you see applied to the F-35 may reflect the higher TOC and not the URF. When such a cost basis is used without identifying it, you end up comparing apples and pomegranates. The TOC is not what it will cost to fly the plane off the lot.
As an example, imagine the original cost of the B-52. Now imagine – with the aircraft having been in constant service for 50 years or more – the total cost of ownership. The difference is going be huge. We could easily see a difference of several hundred million dollars per aircraft between URF and TOC as fuel, maintenance, upgrades, modifications, parts, labor, crew costs, and basing costs are all added to the aircraft’s original price, correct? Imagine seeing the TOC for a B-52 represented as the URF. You’d say “no way, we can’t afford it”.
So, given that understanding, what will it cost us to fly the aircraft off the dealer’s lot (URF)? Again, in 2010 dollars, assuming all the aircraft originally contracted for are bought (2,443) and production can begin in a timely manner, a CTOL variant F-35 is going to cost $65 million to fly away. The Marine variant, the STOVL (Short Take Off Vertical Landing) will be in the $75 million range and the CV version (more robust frame/undercarriage built for carrier operations) for the Navy in the $70ish million range.
I briefly talked about other versions of cost associated with this or any other defense project. They are only meaningful within the government/defense procurement community and are used in reporting and monitoring each program within that community. They have no real relevance to the URF but are sometimes quoted in the media as reflecting that price. They provide another example of the wildly divergent costs we see.
As an example, one cost used is APUC or Average Process Unit Cost. Essentially they take the URF and add some other costs to it (see chart) to arrive at that cost. There’s another called PAUC or Program Acquisition Unit Cost. Again, in the case of PAUC, URF has some selected costs added to it to arrive atthe particular cost. They’re not costs we should be concerned with as they deal more with program costs over the life of the aircraft (as well as some R &D costs) than the eventual cost per plane to fly away. If you see a cost of $93 million per copy floating around out there, for instance, it is likely the PAUC cost as reflected in the chart. Again, that’s not the cost per plane to fly it away (URF).
Finally, just because it is interesting, let’s talk about something else associated with cost and also not properly compared.
So, I think we can agree that we can fly an Air Force F-35 CTOL away for about $65 million (2010 dollars). But I can fly a 4th generation fighter away for, say, $50 million – why not build a whole bunch of those for less money?
Two reasons – they’re significantly inferior in technology and not very stealthy at all. And that $50 million really doesn’t reflect the true cost – not if you want to do anything with the aircraft other than just fly it around. The F-35 as delivered is mission capable. That means it comes with everything already on board to fly missions in combat. It’s combat ready. The 4th generation fighter? Extra cost is required to make it combat ready. You get a basic 4th generation fighter for the quoted price and then have to buy, at extra cost, what is necessary to configure it for combat. Once you pay to configure a 4th gen fighter to be mission capable, i.e., buy what it needs to do its mission in combat, its cost is pretty close to the same as a CTOL F-35 and it is still an inferior aircraft.
Bottom Line: The actual cost to get a new Air Force F-35 into service is about $65 million (2010 dollars). Claims of higher costs for an Air Force F-35 are usually misleading attempts to include years of operating and maintenance costs (costs applicable to all aircraft across the board regardless of generation) in the purchase price.
Just thought that you should be aware of that.
Let's hear what you think about this in the Comments.
Update 1: Just heard from the House Armed Services Committee on this post:
Just to piggyback, the Committee is expected to pass an Amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act today that authorizes GE-Rolls Royce to self fund their F35 engine. Since the F35 contract will last 3 decades, the Pentagon originally planned for an annual competition for sustainment and procurement costs. The short term cost of developing the GE engine was deemed too high by the Defense Department, and they canceled the program, ignoring the hazards in handing a $1 billion engine contract to a monopoly. With the Pratt & Whitney engine is already $3.5 billion over budget and wrought with thrust and nozzle problems, the General Electric proposal to pay out of pocket couldn’t have come at a better time.Update 2: Got a question about how much the ball park cost for upgrading a 4th gen fighter to combat mission capable?
So in the spirit of your post, today Congress is in a unique position to significantly mitigate the costs of the F-35 program, with no further financial obligation from the Pentagon. We get taxpayer free competition for JSF engine contracts, avoid the pitfalls of a $100 billion Pratt & Whitney monopoly that’s already taking Congress to the bank, keep thousands of employees working, and finally will start to reap the rewards of industry-led acquisition reform. In short, the precise type of reform that the Pentagon and Congress have been pleading with the defense industry to institute for years.
John Noonan
Speechwriter & Deputy Communications Director
U.S. House Armed Services Committee
$10-15,000,000 which makes it about the same cost as the F35. But you don't get the next gen technology, weapons, capabilities, etc. for that price.
Just f*cking wow.
We've all been deceived. And those that were spouting the various falsehoods know better.
Amazing.
I'll bet we don't see this on Ares. ;-) Doesn't fit their agenda.
ReplyDeleteyou're so right! they've played games with these costs figures for a long time and finally someone with knowledge is pushing back! about time!
ReplyDeletei just wonder how many other issues we've been debating have been outright lies and the people making the arguments knew it.
but check this out...the response from the Speech Writer/Deputy Communication Director!
these guys have juice and they have the ear of a guy with juice...I LOVE IT!
On the first day back at school my professor said never to trust an article that cites statistics because everyone loves to manipulate numbers.
ReplyDeleteYea they know their numbers are wrong and they assume that we don't know that.
Heck I didn't know what URF and TOC were until I read this article.
i got a great clue on it from an article a little while ago, but this just closes the circle for me.
ReplyDeletequite honestly, Bill has some explaining to do.
Soloman, i wouldnt celebrate just yet, i agree with the analysis and even if it did cost 100 mil a copy its still worth the national security. The thing is people like Bill at ARES are so ingrained in their own beliefs they dont care what other people say, to them their fantasy is reality. i wouldnt even give a shit to be honest, those who have IQ who is greater than their age know perfectly well this aircraft will ensure our air dominance for the next generation, just like the critics of the V22 (which was mis-handled in the testing by botched maintenance records and shit like that), when it gets to the fleet and air arms, it will prove itself worth the money.
ReplyDeletedont fight battles you have already won sol :), although this was a great post.
you're so wrong joe.
ReplyDeleteif this battle was already won then you wouldn't have a majority of defense blogs calling for the cancelation of the F-35.
if this battle was won then you wouldn't have election like those recently held in canada where the critics were using the F-35 as a debating chip.
if this battle was already won then we would see much more balanced reporting from ARES.
this battle is hardly won but with BLACKFIVE coming out and vocalizing the advantages of this program, it will be.
Solomon,
ReplyDeletejust a question, WRT Update 1: a private corporation needs aproval from Congress to spend its own pocket money? Is it a matter of security clearances or am I missing something?
Take care.
All the engines, tooling, and likely the designs produced to date are the property of the US Government. GE is asking to be allowed to use these to continue the F136's development with it's own money.
ReplyDelete"...assuming all the aircraft originally contracted for are bought (2,443) and production can begin in a timely manner..."
ReplyDeleteIsn't the number to be procured already in question? What effect does the Royal Navy's change in model have?
Also, what is "a timely manner"? What reason is there to think that based on past program performance and the hurdles left to cross that things will proceeed "in a timely manner"?
@Joe: "The thing is people like Bill at ARES are so ingrained in their own beliefs they dont care what other people say, to them their fantasy is reality. "
ReplyDeleteI would not say BS is ignorant as much as he has an agenda. He's stated he fears the success of the F-35 would mean the end of European fighter development and he's European so you can draw your own conclusion there. ELP, well, he's a bit of a schizophrenic. All he knows is he hates the F-35 and can't really give a coherent answer to the question of, "what is a viable alternative?". I think he's a die hard fan of the F-teens and doesn't really care about reality. The rest of the drones are simply mice following the Pied Piper (Bill).
sferrin- I take exception to that. I have issue with the design and program philosophy of the F-35 program. First, the one fighter to fit all needs was a mistake. The F-4 served all branches, but no one tried to make it STOVL. The Harrier has served the Marines well but no one tried to make it an air superiority fighter either. Trying to cram all of that into one box has hurt all three versions. It also does not help that those who love this strike fighter tend to use it with terms of air dominance, air superiority, et. al., which does it a disservice by placing upon it expectations that are unrealistic. It was originally concieved as the low end of the hi-low mix philosophy (F-22 to F-35 as the F-15 to F-16 & F-14 to F-18) but now you have people saying "you don't need the F-22, the F-35 can do everything",which just fuels the fire as it is simply not as capable as the F-22 in an A2A arena and was never designed to be. I also personally feel that too much airframe performance was compromised with to much reliance on technology to cover the gap. As I and others have said before, this has been tried in the past and has been met with less than stellar results.
ReplyDeleteIgnoring the program issues, the F-35 may ultimately become a good next generation light strike fighter, but the Navy will still not have a single 5th generation Air superiority/Interceptor, the the Air Force will still not have enough F-22's and the F-35 cannot fill either of those two roles completely.
@Privateer454: "First, the one fighter to fit all needs was a mistake."
ReplyDeleteThey needed a replacement for the F-16 (land based), F/A-18 (carrier based), and AV-8B (STOVL). They needed THREE types of aircraft. The big mistake everybody seems to be making (intentionally or otherwise) is that the F-35 isn't just one aircraft program. It's three. So comparing the program cost to an F-16 or F-15 or whatever is completely off base. Of course the next arguement will be "well they should have built three SEPERATE programs". Well guess what, you think the F-35 is expensive, it's downright cheap compared to funding THREE seperate *programs*. Had they gone that direction the STOVL version would have probably been cancelled already because of high unit price. (Imagine the cost of an F-35B if the F-35A and C were cancelled.) You'd be funding two seperate engines (because the USN would demand a twin), three seperate design teams most likely at at least two different companies. Three assembly lines, tooling, supply chains, etc. Oh yeah, that would have been cheaper.
"As I and others have said before, this has been tried in the past and has been met with less than stellar results."
Yeah that's about the most assinine reason for not doing it. "We failed before so we shouldn't try it anymore."
"Yeah that's about the most assinine reason for not doing it. "We failed before so we shouldn't try it anymore.""
ReplyDeleteActually, you should try, but make sure you have a system that can survive if reality doesn't live up to program expectations.
I tire of the "never could have afforded three separate programs (even as you claim that this is three separate programs). The Harrier and the LWF program didn't need to be born conjoined twins/triplets to be successful.
Two programs with high "systems" commonality, but lower airframe commonality would likely have not been significantly (if at all) more expensive and would have produced better A/C. How much more expensive are the A&C due to redesigns born out of the B? How much weight penalty? Sure the STOVL model may have been more expensive, but the A&C would likely be less leaving a net change that would likely have ended up pretty close to where this mess is going to end up.
The main problems that they have been having, getting software out, certifying it, ramping up production, etc would still be happening if you had 2-3 programs that shared subsystems. Unless you were speaking about 3 different aircraft producers in which case the price just shot up considerably.
ReplyDelete@Privateer454
ReplyDelete"The Harrier has served the Marines well but no one tried to make it an air superiority fighter either."
Ever heard of the FRS1 Sea Harrier? The RN Strike Fighter/Fleet Defense Fighter variant of the RAF's GR1 Harrier ground attack aircraft.
@TLAM: Also don't forget the USMC Harriers have the APG-65 (Hornet radar) and AIM-120 capability.
ReplyDelete@Privateer454:"I tire of the "never could have afforded three separate programs (even as you claim that this is three separate programs). The Harrier and the LWF program didn't need to be born conjoined twins/triplets to be successful."
ReplyDeleteYou should really work on your reading skills. 1. There is a difference between three varients and three completely seperate designs.
2. Nobody said they needed the three combined into one to be successful. They combined them into one to be *affordable*.
@TLAM: The Harrier design was not encumbered from the outset with typical air superiority design traits (good combat radius, supersonic, radar) although as with most good A/C designs it could be and has been adapted to other roles.
ReplyDelete@sferrin: As to the # of programs my reading comprehension is just fine, I was merely quoting you, "The big mistake everybody seems to be making (intentionally or otherwise) is that the F-35 isn't just one aircraft program. It's three."
Also, "Nobody said they needed the three combined into one to be successful. They combined them into one to be *affordable*." Well, thus far it has hardly been affordable and we are just starting to see if it will in fact be successful.
BTW, you still have not proven to me that the combined program costs of the F-18A and the AV-8B were proportionately greater than those of the F-35 program.
@Privateer: That would be F-16, F/A-18 (and YF-17 as the later wouldn't be there without the former), and AV-8A (and Kestral as there would be no Harrier without it. Now add in the costs for all the upgrades to all those aircraft over the years to get them where they are today. Now put it into today's dollars. Oh, and that just gets you a bunch of obsolete aircraft. But hey, apparently you know more than all those people who ran the numbers over and over to arrive at the current plan.
ReplyDeleteBlog has been difficult to reach from here, but I wanted to thank whoever --sorry: I'm real bad with names, even worse with aliases, and comments seem to have been lost-- answered my question on Congress and private purses vs. intellectual property and tools.
ReplyDeleteFerran, BCN