A simple question to all. Is the Marine Corps an elite force?
The question came up when me and some buddies were having a few cold ones talking about this that and the other thing...being that it was a bunch of military guys....2 Marines, a couple of Sailors and a Soldier...that question came up.
My answer was---of course. Is it Special Ops? No. Is it elite? Yes.
The Soldier chimed in wanting to know the difference....my reply was that the 82nd Airborne is elite...that the 101st is elite....and that before the Stryker conversions the 10th Mountain, 25th Infantry were also elite.
Of course he agreed but added that some Stryker Brigades and even some Heavy Battalions could be considered elite.
Sailors being who they are also decided to add their two cents. It got to the point where Carrier Air Wings, EOD and Riverine should also be considered elite units.
So on this somber weekend, where we remember our fallen I'm posing this question. What is elite and who fills the bill?
i say it depends on their task, we wouldnt ask the 82nd to take out the bin laden compound, its not what they were trained for, but we wouldnt ask seal team six to take and hold ground (like an airport) like we would the 82nd. traditional infantry has large support units it can call upon, marines, seals, others are trained to think outside teh box, "improvise, adapt,overcome", the bin laden raid is a perfect example, mission didnt go as planned, but they adapted, and got the job done. i dont mean this to denigrate regular infantry, but we ask some units to do more with less, that to me is elite.
ReplyDeletei wasn't there so i don't know but reports are that they had a plan b if one of the helicopters went down.
ReplyDeletealso who's to say that a conventional force couldn't have taken down the compound if given the same resources.
not slamming the SEALs...they did a great job but it was against a static enemy with known forces etc. it wasn't a movement to contact against an unknown enemy force.
i'm saying all that to say that it was a mission set...not exactly an unknown target. additionally did you know that the 82nd had the airport seizure mission taken away from them by the Rangers?
not to say that the Rangers do a worse job or that the 82nd does a better job ... just saying that Raid missions is what makes Special Ops ====Special Ops these days and that those aren't particularly the most difficult missions to undertake at least from a grunts perspective.
Traditionally an elite unit was a veteran formation founded upon good leadership, training, and doctrine. Consider WWII where most US infantry units were far from "elite" and had serious issues closing with and maneuvering to destroy the enemy. The elite units like the 82nd, 101st, etc. were the exception.
ReplyDeleteGiven the amount of realistic training US forces receive one could argue most active formations are elite as compared to the rest of the world. Certainly other nations active forces rate the term elite. Note an elite formation is not defined as regular, specialized (marine, para, etc.), special forces, etc. There are elite armored and regular formations. The Marines are certainly an elite force while some special forces units around the world are not.
One used to describe only veteran units blooded in combat that performed very well as elite. Today with a high enough frequency of realistic training nations can create elite units in peace time but the real test will always be combat. Many units throughout history deemed elite did not perform up to those standards in combat or at least not at first.
I'm hardly an expert, but isn't your definition of elite very close to that of 'light infantry'?
ReplyDeleteLane---
ReplyDeletei think you hit on what i was trying to get at but didn't have the knowledge to properly express it.
3runO---
not really. i specifically talked about the 25th and 10th mountain on the notion that i've seen those guys work in the field and they were damn good. as far as the heavy units are concerned i hadn't seen them so didn't initially consider them. i've also trained beside the 82nd and 101st so i knew there capabilities.
i think 101st at Bastogne in 1944 is probably the definition of "elite" historically :), although they were glad to see Pattons spearhead!
ReplyDeleteif you want to talk historical actions that denote elite outfits then you're talking about a couple of books worth.
ReplyDeleteSpartans, SS troops, Commandos from several nations, Rangers, Marines from several nations, Airborne forces from several nations, Armored Formations, Light Infantry heck you could even include Bomber Groups, Fighter Groups and Naval Squadrons.
i think if we go that way then it becomes too broad to even contemplate.
understood and agree, we all have our favorites though :) and i loved the reply of the general when asked to surrender.
ReplyDeleteI usually define "elite" as "the best".
ReplyDeleteSpecialists under the specialists, as it were. Meaning those that are masters of their own trade, and then some, and provide a special capability or skill that can't be easily taught, save through experience.
I agree that it's a bit vague, but I guess that's the whole appeal of being "elite".
ok, well taking that view of things are Marine Forces elite?
ReplyDeleteSol,
ReplyDeleteMy take would be that saying the Marines as a whole are 'elite' is meaningless. The force is simply too big, bigger than many nations armed forces (probably something similar to the entire UK armed forces), so to call them all elite would be no different to saying making a sweeping generalisation like "French infantry are better than German infantry". Yes the Marines are better trained than the Army but that may just be a sad reflection on the basic level of training in the US Army, it may not make them elite. Its a little different to some nations, like UK Marine Commandos, who are relatively small force all trained to exceptionally high standards.
I'd say that there are plenty of elite elements within the Marines though, like Force Recon.
hmmm.
ReplyDeleteif training is an indication of eliteness then wouldn't that satisfy the criteria?
my next question would be if the Marines as a whole don't qualify for elite status then does the 82nd Airborne?
if so then why?
lets look at the other forces that can readily be compared. the British Army is the same size as the US Special Operations Command. Does that make them elite?
and back to the Royal Marines, no slam on them but by your reckoning then the entire formation isn't any better trained than the US Marines...they have certain units like Mountain Leaders and Commachio Group (i think thats the name) that have counterparts with the US formations but your definition just leaves out so much.
SBS=SEALs=Force Recon
Commachio Group=FAST Companies
Mountain Leaders=USMC Assault Climbers
we could play that game all day so hopefully you see my point.
oh and if i come off as being confrontational i don't mean to, its just that the answer is elusive.
I have to agree with Grim901. As a whole, the Marines are a cut above everyone else but too big to be called elite. Can you call Marine who spends most of his tour in a supply depot in California 'elite'?
ReplyDeleteThat said, the Marines I would consider elite are the MEU(SOC). The combination of skills, capabilities, etc you would be hard pressed to find elsewhere.
ok i'll play. what makes a MEU(SOC) elite if the Marines as a whole aren't?
ReplyDeletethey have a BLT thats drawn from a Infantry Battalion. an aviation component .,...a logistics component and a command element....
basically every part of the Marine Corps placed together in a tailored package, given normal Marine Corps training and placed aboard ship.
every standard that the MEU(SOC) has to meet has to be met by every Infantry Battalion in the Corps.
As you said, the answer is elusive and I would add subject to personal opinions.
ReplyDeleteA MEU(SOC) has all the same skills as a normal battalion but when you add all the extras to it, it makes it better. As a mini-Marine Corp it can gel better I think then if you did it as a divisional sized MEF. I'm probably wrong but that's the best I can explain it.
It certainly depends on how one defines the term elite but it's worth noting past performance in terms of a given set of formations. For the US during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam few regular battalions would be considered elite. Comparing the standard of today's US infantry battalions would allow deeming most elite. At least this is the point of view of Lieutenant General Daniel Bolger in his 1999 "Death Ground: Today's American Infantry in Battle" and it's a reasonable argument in my view.
ReplyDeletei totally get what you're saying Lane and agree with every point.
ReplyDeletei would deem regular US Army formations as being elite (almost the entire US military can be considered as such when compared with its current contemporaries...the Russians and Chinese)
but that gets back to trying to figure out the definition. i never read the book (its on the reading list) but crib notes seem to say that the General is implying that due to all the combat that these units have seen over a protracted period that they're elite.
to be honest that is as good a definition as any but its also a good way to end up with a broken force.
like i said, i agree with your statement but i don't have the bow to wrap this all up in --- to be clear i don't have an answer that sings!
Google definition: elite =
ReplyDelete"A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth."
Does that help ?
Ref Royal Marine Commando's - personally I think if you wear a Green Beret your a member of an elite unit, with the longest basic light infantry course in the world, teaching a set of skills to a very, very high standard.
So to Sol's point - do SBS = SEALs,sort of. I don't know what a 'FAST Company" is in the USMC, and I don't know if Commachio Group still exists as such (it did when I was in) however all in all, I would say an average Bootneck is equal to a Force Recon Leatherneck.
i definitely disagree....the Royal Marines only have 7000 personnel...i've seen the 45 Commando up close and to be honest they didn't appear to be anything special (not taking anything away from them...just noting what i observed).
ReplyDeleteas far as capabilities? i'm not sure i agree that the Royal Marines have a choice but to concentrate on the light infantry role.
the average Bootneck equal to Force Recon? i think not. the training doesn't rise to that standard.
you really need to spend some time with a line company and watch the work thats done there before you make such comments.