Thanks for the heads up on these two articles Phil!
Despite all the manufactured nonsense regarding the stealth characteristics of the F-35, it appears that some military thinkers are looking at things rationally, sensibly and with an eye toward future conflicts/roles/functions.
The articles are from The Early Warning Blog and Danger Room.
Read both articles in their entirety but here's a tidbit. First from The Early Warning Blog.
Pity poor Britain, which decided to cancel its acquisition of the F-35B in favor of the conventional carrier variant. An equally good aircraft, the F-35C requires a full deck carrier. The British are building two, one to use and one to mothball. But because the Cameron government has decided to retire the British Harriers, the two existing carriers will only operate helicopters until such time as they are decommissioned.This is the argument that Sharkey Ward over at the Phoenix Think Tank has been putting forward. The Royal Navy is in decline and will suffer an extended period of incalculable risk because of the decision to retire its Harriers. The issue for the UK isn't simply an inter service battle however. Its more important than that. It exposes a risk to that nation. An unacceptable one in my eyes.
So today it is the Italian navy that is providing responsive air assets for the Libyan campaign using Harriers launched from its aircraft carrier. Britain is forced to fly Tornado and Typhoon jets from Italian airbases with all the refueling that requires and the wear and tear on pilots and aircraft. This conflict signals the end of Great Britain as a naval power. It also underscores the value to NATO and its members of having a weapons system as flexible as the F-35B in future conflicts.
The next article is from the Danger Room. This one should cause fear in the ward rooms of every Super Carrier at sea. The real threat to our flat tops isn't 'ballistic anti-carrier missiles'....it isn't SSK's....it isn't hyper sonic cruise missiles. Its the threat that LHD sized carriers will be proven to be just as efficient, cheaper and more economical to run and maintain. If the X-47 is ever able to operate off LHD's then stick a fork in the super carrier.
“Moving away from highly expensive and vulnerable supercarriers toward smaller, light carriers would bring the additional benefit of increasing our nation’s engagement potential.” It would also spread out U.S. naval air power instead of concentrating it in just a few places, where it can be more easily knocked out.Imagine a fleet of 33 USS America sized carriers operating F-35's from their decks. That would be beyond impressive. That would be a sea control force that would terrorize our enemies.
Hendrix’s controversial argument is the subject of my first piece for AOL’s new military website.
To be clear: no one, including Hendrix, is claiming big carriers will become totally obsolete overnight. Besides the U.S., Britain, India and especially China are all building brand-new large carriers, though none quite as big as America’s 11 Nimitz- and Enterprise-class ships, each displacing around 100,000 tons. Hendrix insists the Navy keep some of its nuclear supercarriers as a “heavy surge force” capable of steaming into action during a major crisis.
Outgoing secretary of defense Robert Gates echoed that sentiment in a speech last year.
But for routine patrols, the Navy should have a larger number of smaller flattops. Hendrix doesn’t propose a specific number, but he does point out that three, 40,000-ton light carriers could be had for the price of one supercarrier.
A light carrier is viable because of a shift in the way air power is used. During the Cold War, the Navy’s focus was generating at many fighter sorties as possible within the first few days of a full-scale conflict. After all, big shooting wars weren’t expected to last very long. Supercarriers are optimized for that kind of “big and fast” fighting.
Today, conflicts tend to be drawn-out, low-intensity affairs requiring fewer but longer sorties by sea-launched planes. Carriers don’t need to embark as many fighters, or launch them as often. That’s why a smaller carrier is possible, according to Hendrix.
The F-35's haters thought that they would start a storm that would raise doubts about the F-35 with Sweetman's article earlier this week.
Now it not only looks better than ever but it would appear that those of us that believed in the potential of this system are seeing converts to our position.
Life is good.
"Today, conflicts tend to be drawn-out, low-intensity affairs requiring fewer but longer sorties by sea-launched planes. Carriers don’t need to embark as many fighters, or launch them as often. That’s why a smaller carrier is possible, according to Hendrix"
ReplyDeleteExcept that the F-35B has the shortest legs of the three variants. Also, to lengthen the duration of these longer missions, what airborne refueling assets would a LHD sized carrier embark? Also, by nature of its added complexity, the B is going to be the hardest to maintain. So, reduce the number of assets on the deck and then have them all be the type most likely to be in need of maintenance - not a good combination.
"Imagine a fleet of 33 USS America sized carriers operating F-35's from their decks. That would be beyond impressive. That would be a sea control force that would terrorize our enemies."
Don't forget that operating in STOVL mode limits the amount of ordinance that can be carried and especially how much can be brought back (along with fuel). IIRC the B can no longer carry 2000lb class weapons internally either - not exactly a formula for shock and awe.
A STOVL variant has its place, but not at the elimination of the other assets and capabilities the super carrier can bring forward.
it has the shortest legs of the three JSF variants but its much longer ranged than the Harrier that it will replace.
ReplyDeleteadditionally with the rise in precision weapons heavy wt weapons aren't as necessary.
next, why is everyone so stuck on internal carriage? in many of these missions the airplane will carry external ordinance which means shock and awe will be viable.
lastly, we should compare this airplane (the B model) against the airplane it will replace....so the mix and matching of requirements and the use of stats that are to the B's disadvantage is a misnomer.
i have always loved hte idea of having smaller carriers but more of them. First of all if one does get damaged or sunk, you still can rely on a strong force to carry out strike missions, with the big flat tops, one loss and its a disaster, while i dont want to see any brave sailors/marines killed by losing a ship the loss would be less with the smaller carriers.
ReplyDeleteone thing i am wondering, how would you use the AWACS plane or the greyhound supply plane? cn those do short take off?
i have an idea, i think they should make the the america class carrier for jets and air supremacy, then fill up the supercarriers with X47s and make it one badass bomber platform. you can also keep the awacs and greyhound on teh flat top. This would mean less wear on teh supercarrier because unlike today you wouldnt need x47s for every operation, only really intense conflicts.
well remember when i was commenting on this it was with a view toward sneaking in more amphibious shipping.
ReplyDeleteif we went to smaller aircraft carriers then why couldn't they have catapults?
with EMALS they ought to be able to dial it up to launch conventional jets from the deck.
your plan sounds good though....but we have to face a tough fact.
we're gonna have a hard time justifying 11 super carriers. thats just a fact.
we might have to get used to the idea of having 6 to 8 super advanced super carriers and be happy.
well i agree we dont need as many super carriers as we have, and i understand about the amphibious nature, but why not designing it for an either role. you should be able to design it where if it needs to be more of a carrier than amphib, you can have more planes and fewer vehicles, if you need an amphib, you can take away some planes and helos and add assault troops, vehicles, landing platforms, etc.
ReplyDeletealso i think it would make us safer in the long run national security wise. our planes are so advanced, and the escort burkes and Ticonderoga, that we dont need a super carrier for most missions, so in essence the navy could do more with smaller flattops and have a platform that could be in a dual role.
your right they could do the EMALS, i am wondering how much the arresting wires space wise take up, thats the only concern i might have is how much space are you sacrificing for that, but otherwise i think supercarriers are too big of targets today, lets get smaller, yet more flexible and effective ships.
also if designed right, you can have more than one carrier with needed tasks, so if we were taking an opposed beach, we could fit two america class as carriers for CAS and air dominance, and two for amphib operations, yet still have aircraft, just less of a complement. Provides great ability and more flexibility.
ReplyDeletebecause tweeners never work.
ReplyDeletethink about this. if the uss america is to act as an aircraft carrier then it would need to double its airwing, it would need to double the amount of aviation fuel and would need more space for munitions.
if its going to be an amphib then it needs berthing for Marines, storage lockers for small arms, vehicle spaces and it needs fuel for the vehicles themselves.
it also needs to carry specific command and control features for the landing force and it would need a great hospital to treat injuries.
they're just apples and oranges....well amphibs and carriers are.
well i was hoping there might be a way to make it modular. so you can use the space for a full airwing or you can take part of an airwing and use rest of space for marines, equipment, landing craft, etc. This seems to be a trend now in the navy of having modular platforms (i.e. LCS). although the LCS is a piece of crap and the america class will be damn good. maybe they can use the same general plans, but make half the boats as amphibs, another group small carriers. the first two americas wont have well decks, the following ones will, so maybe theres a way to not have them modular but build two types who are very similiar but different.
ReplyDeleteyeah you just hit on the real future modularity that you'll see out of the navy.
ReplyDeletethe san antonio class was suppose to be used for the next lsd (the hull form anyway) and the next command ship.
i think thats what you'll see once they discover that the Burke flight 3 can't handle the power requirements of navalized lasers and rail guns.
you'll see the san antonio class hull used or maybe teh DDG1000 hull...
yeah will be interesting to see the flight 3 of burkes, and what they can do with the power requirements. the burke is a great platform and hull design but will see if they can get the power. maybe they will try to return to some sort of nuclear powered destroyer/cruiser for the power requirements.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: how unpolitical would it be to put a fission plant on a Burke hull? A single one of the new CVN plants
ReplyDeleteWhile I'm at it: how much could an F35 profit from the length of the pad in a San Antonio if it took off obliquely?
Take care
The idea of small carriers comes around every now and then and the answer is always the same: supercarriers are more cost effective. Take a look at the Sea Control concept of the 70s. The abortion that was the Rockwell XFV-12 came out of that. (They should have gone with the Convair 200.)
ReplyDelete33 Americas compared to 11 Nimitz/Ford class doesn't compare at all. One Nimitz can deploy more aircraft than 3 Americas. (Remember, they're designed for a wing of 90 aircraft. We just don't deploy 90 anymore due to $$$) CVNs are nuclear powered, faster, and WAY harder to sink than LHAs as well. Furthermore they can carry more capable aircraft. No viable AWACS can operate from an LHA. Compared to CV aircaft STOVL are payload/range limited as well. Compare an F-14D, Super Tomcat, NATF (Naval F-22), etc to an F-35B. Good as an F-35B might be (and it's the best you're going to get out of a LHA-elevator-constrained STOVL aircraft) it wouldn't hold a candle to a naval F-22. The CVN gives you options. The LHA gives you constraints. An F-35B equipped LHA is a fine compliment to full blown CVNs but in no way a substitute for them.
Your buddy grand logistics has a number of interesting posts on this topic and I believe comes down square on the side of the ctol/catapult combination for carriers.
ReplyDeletePersonally I think there are good reasons for carriers to be big and amphibs to be somewhat "pure" (a dock seems vital for an amphibian but a waste of space for any carrier). I'd like to see something more along the lines of the invincible class that can operate VTOL, including maritime patrol ospreys, and flex to an all osprey helicopter assault ship. The same hull could make a good strike cruiser to operate alongside
smaller amphibs/carriers could launch large quantities of uav, though as a flat top if it had deck extension, this would reduce cost (no pilots on deployment) and it would also reduce political risk of loss of life as it wouldn't be manned as heavily.
ReplyDeleteIf heavy (read: competent) automation was involved cost wold be brought down and the use of smaller nuke props would be beneficial as well.
The big problem is munition stores fuel and resupply...