Monday, July 04, 2011

Riverine Forces. You're doing it wrong.

Thanks to Resboiu, Maryus315, Jonathan and TLAM Strike.  Everyone seems to be a fan of the Romanian approach to riverine operations and I can see why...check these photos out from the RomaniaForum..






Lets compare notes...US Navy Riverine is below...







What exactly is the mission of the Riverine Forces again?  This from Wikipedia...

The Riverine Squadrons of the United States Navy are elements of the Navy Expeditionary Combat Command (NECC). According to the Navy: “The Navy’s Riverine force focuses on conducting Maritime Security Operations and Theater Security Cooperation in a riverine area of operations or other suitable area. The force is capable of combating enemy riverine forces by applying fires directly, or by coordinating supporting fires. It will share battle space with the other Services in an effort to close the seams in Doctrine, Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures, and Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance.”[1]
Lets break it down...
"Capable of battling enemy riverine forces"
Not bloody likely.  At least not as they're currently configured.  A quick glance reveals that potential enemy nations are using PT (Patrol Torpedo) type boats to conduct this mission....Fast Attack Craft if you want the modern designation.  Not only will these type boats out range US Riverine boats in weapons range but they'll also be as fast (in most cases).  If you're relying on the "coordinating supporting fires" part of the mission statement to get past this hurdle then you're whistling past the grave yard.  Gone are the days of the Sea Wolves.  The US Navy does not have dedicated attack helos anymore and even if they did I wonder how long it would take for help to arrive in a meeting engagement.

A Special Ops bias in weapons fit and equipment fit.
I totally get why SEAL Delivery Teams have selected their boats and their weapons fit.  The need to extract SEAL Teams in contact require the ability to put out a tremendous amount of firepower.  The need to rapidly arrive at a desired location and to leave at high speed makes sense.

It doesn't for a force that is operating in a certain area, interdicting enemy supply routes, smuggling etc.  The idea that Riverine Forces will conduct limited missions ashore is a mystery too.

Wrong mission, wrong equipment fit.
There has been one complaint waged against the big Navy that seems more and more valid.  They're so concerned with blue water operations that riverine and green water ops have suffered.  The war on terror should have been the excuse necessary to make the change.  What have they done instead?  The label a Frigate sized warship as a littoral combat vessel and ignore history.  The LCS concept would make sense if it was uparmed and called a Frigate instead.  The big Navy needs Frigates.

What the big Navy also needs is a blast from the past.  Patrol Boats.  Real deal littoral combat vessels.  You remember the type.  The type that John F. Kennedy rode into battle.  The kind that were taking on destroyers with success.  The kind that harassed the Japanese during WW2.  Thats what the Navy needs in the 21st century.

Want a kick in the guts?

The CB90 is about the right size for a Patrol Boat.  Its seriously under armed historically but size and speed wise it fits the bill.  I wouldn't look for Riverine to make the common sense move to larger platforms though.  It seems that the command has SEAL Team Delivery light on the brain.

13 comments :

  1. so the russian and romanian ones both have a pretty good sized caliber weapon in the front, the CB90 doest, do you see this as a deficit sol? i mean what kind of capabilities would be needed with regards to that? some sort of missile system like javelin or maybe a morter type barrel?

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  2. i'm not so much caught up on the firepower as i am the size of the boats. have you seen the mississippi? you're talking about a stretch of river that can be pretty imposing in clear weather much less bad. add darkness to the mix and i just don't think the riverine boats are up to the task.

    have you seen what Navy security forces use for harbor patrol? or how about the pt boats from ww2?

    i don't care if you put javelins or hellfires on it...the point is you need a bigger platform to operate from. you also need a slightly bigger contingent of sailors aboard too.

    riverine is in the raid type mindset when they should be focusing on the patrol type idea. inspect barges and fishing boats along with harbor inspection and such.

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  3. This might be of interest, photos of land locked navies:
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?175534-NAVIES-OF-LANDLOCKED-COUNTRIES-fotos-and-informations.

    These guys patrol where they live, we can learn a lot from them!

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  4. i understand, well it sounds like then what the coast guard cutters have, the new national security cutter may do a good job of that, it has a pretty good caliber gun on it, can deploy men and things like that if some redesign work on it, to carry a contingent to either engage from the ship or be put to shore. some people were saying the national security cutter should be used instead of the LCS designs but the national security cutter wasnt intended for contested waters is what was said. its still a good ship to check out.

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  5. TLAM Strike.

    wow, i never even thought those countries would attempt a navy. interesting stuff.

    Joe.

    the National Security Cutter would be classed as a frigate...its the same size as an LCS. still too big for what i'm talking about. WW2 PT boats were about 30 tons (German E-class got huge though), could do about 40 knots or better and were armed to the gills...they recorded kills on destroyers and damage to battleships....Riverines in Vietnam sunk many saipans smuggling viet cong up and down river ways. but back to the point. you aren't going to sail the NSC up a river. not most of them anyway. thats suppose to be where riverine operates.

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  6. understood sol, well the norweigns seem to have a good boat:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skjold_class_patrol_boat

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  7. ok, that didn't come out right. i'm just not a fan of the NSC and i'm losing faith in the LCS.

    but that Skjold...that would be perfect for littoral combat but i'm not so sure about the riverine mission.

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  8. As I understand its operational role, the primary armament of a CB90 is 20 or so marines who engage enemy ships from land using Hellfire derivatives. CB90 design is optimized for high speed carriage and landing of troops, but not of equipment (not even jeeps and such). CB90 is sort of a green water / brown water UH-60 equivalent, not an MTB or MGB, and like the UH-60 it is primarily armed for self defense, not for offensive patrolling.

    You can mount 120mm mortars for fire support or fire hellfire missiles from it plus it can carry mines. There are also purer patrol boat derivatives which I'm guessing could take an armament package much like a BMP-3 turret that would do all you need to do in riverine work quite nicely.

    Skjold is pretty much state of the art littoral right now, though for cost effectiveness I suspect the Chinese have gotten it right with their catamaran stealth FPBs of about the same size, the Houbei class. Neither are riverine, but PT boats weren't really either.

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  9. well i hate the LCS so its all good, i a not saying the Skjold is perfect now but something like that (maybe somewhat redesigned) seems good, i personally like designs like that. have you seen sea figther? i still want it in the LCS and it think could do a good Frigate role. i am not trying to argue, you know more than me, just my thoughts, but my personal view is the LCS is a bloated POS, it has no fighting capabilities without its mission modules and they haven't done any of the mission modules yet. the international version would be much better, both companies have those, with 16 VLS cells and a good AEGIS radar!

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  10. btw what is the boat on the top of the page?

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  11. TTS "Chacona" of the Trinidad and Tobago Coast Guard

    http://www.trinituner.com/v3/forums/viewtopic.php?t=281288&start=30

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  12. Solomon. The Skjold has a low draft of about 3 feet and small wake, which should be good for rivers. The neat thing about the concept is that it also has very good open sea capabilities.

    A good description of the Skjold:
    http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/skjold/

    As for patrolling the Mississippi; do you really need the armor and guns of the Romanian vessel? How about the Colombian approach:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARC_Juan_Ricardo_Oyola_Vera

    B. Bolsøy
    Oslo

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  13. Skjold not being "riverine" isn't just about size, though even with a three foot draft a 200+ ton boat is going to be too big for many rivers.

    Stealth design, good sea keeping and an orientation towards large surface to surface missiles are expensive features of Skjold (and Houbei) that are wasted in most riverine operations though they are all very powerful for littoral work.

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