Monday, May 28, 2012

First trouble between the UK & Argentina, now UK & Spain. Rough times for the empire.



This vis BFBS.
Rising tensions between Britain and Spain over Gibraltar will be discussed tomorrow when the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, hosts talks in London with his Spanish counterpart.
It comes after weeks of stand-offs at sea involving Royal Navy and Defence Police vessels.
They have been scrambled regularly to prevent Spanish trawlers casting their nets inside the Rock's territorial waters.
Gibraltar's Chief Minister has described the incursions as a "carefully premeditated challenge to our indisputable sovereignty".
The Spanish police are demanding their government sends in its own warships to protect them against the Royal Navy.
Sidenote 1:
This is shaping up to be quite a challenging year for the Royal Navy in particular and the British version of our State Dept in general.  First the trouble between the UK and Argentina and now between the UK and Spain?  I would think that some type of alliance between Spain and Argentina would be unthinkable but stranger things have happened.  Additionally these disputes all revolve around natural resources...in this case fishing rights or potential oil leases.

Sidenote 2:
The Brits list the Archer class patrol boat as the smallest warship in the British Navy.  Spain also considers it a warship and wants to respond in kind.  The reason why this is interesting is because the Coastal Riverine Force is getting the Mark VI which is considered too small to get the job done or too compromised to do it well.  Compared to the Archer its a beast of a ship.  Perhaps more importantly the Mark VI compares favorably with the River Class OPV and is more heavily armed.  Interesting and Outstanding.

12 comments :

  1. Sol its worth noting that the smaller vessels used by the RN are effectivly used in a coastguard role. Infact the Archer's are university training vessels. so arn't armed with much more than .50 pop guns. Gib doesn't actually use the archers either thye have Scimeters which are even smaller. The riverine role for the UK would be played out by the Royal Marines who it seems getting a chance to play with combat boat 90's which always look fun.

    Having had a look at the new proposed Mark VI images you posted I'm a mite concerend with the gun location forward. A mk38 mod 2 loaded weighs in at about 1.4ton which is a hell of a lot to put that far forward on a boat hell its almost on the prow. I wouldn't be surprised if redesign is done before they are finished.

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  2. i wouldn't be too concerned about the weapon mount on the Mark VI. many people failed to note that the same weapon system is mounted on the stern.

    thanks for the info on the Archer. what are your thoughts on the geo politics at play here?

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  3. Oh... Gibraltar. Again. Panem et circenses.

    Apparently, there's some kind of treaty which allows Spanish fishermen into G. waters, and they've been harassed of late. I haven't read it myself.

    What I can tell you is that those waters are a neverending source of cheap patriotism. From UK soldiers in exercise who somehow end up some Spanish backyard [check a map: it does take some effort to do so unknowingly; also, it's all fun and play until someone remembers how many people in the region are hunters and more or less inclined to the more classical forms of country defence]. I'm sure Gibraltar has equivalent stories about Spanish soldiers or similar.

    Red herring, I call it.

    From "Gibraltar es, y siempre será, español" to "Gibraltar es, y siempre será, un peñón" [Gibraltar is, and shall always be, Spanish // a rock --also,a bother; pretty old-school Spanish--].

    Ferran, BCN.

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  4. A Brit once commented that the UK shouldn't talk with Spain about giving back Gibraltar until Spain gives the Ceuta and Melilla encalves back to Morocco.

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  5. What's that? Spain has massive economic problems and could use an external diversion to take the nation's mind off things. Oh look the British, they'll do. Predictable. Well I highly doubt the Germans and French are going to bankroll them if they want to start playing the military game so the Gibraltarians have very little to worry about.

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  6. GRIM! why is that always the first response whenever someone is threatening Britain? why is it always pointed to a diversion because of problems at home? sometimes issues are issues and have nothing to do with anything else.

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  7. Because the Gibraltar issue (and the Falklands) simmer for years, and then Spain (or Argentina) decide to change how they're acting, from ignoring it as a non-issue (Gibraltar isnt that big of a deal frankly and has importance for NATO of which Spain is a member, and the Spanish are well known for ignoring fishing laws of other nations pretty much globally) to deciding that something must be done immediately.

    The timing is suspicious is all. And the Spanish actions are stupid, the Guardia know from previous experience that the British will respond and that the Royal Navy will get involved, they therefore know that they aren't going to win these confrontations either, so its not really about the fishing vessels getting through at all. It's simple provocation which they know they cant really escalate beyond so they're doing to rile up their own country and feel better about themselves rather than actually solve the issue.

    As "me" pointed out the Spanish are no less guilty in terms of colonialism than the UK, and still have colonies of their own. Their claims over them are much more tenuous than the British claims of Gibraltar which Spain agreed to cede.

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  8. In answer to your question about a Spanish-Argentinian combined posturing against UK interests, that's highly unlikely at the moment. Argentinian has just nationalised a Spanish oil company that was working in Argentina. It's caused a lot of fuss and the Spanish / EU are now taking the matter to the World Trade Organisation. See link below:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18204213

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  9. Sol
    Spain cant afford a war against the UK.
    Even if it won, it wins little.
    And its chances of winning are pretty poor, no 8000 mile logistics train. Spains closer than Libya, and we could reach out and slap them...

    It has a lot to gain if it goes to war with us against Argentina however.

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  10. SOL the 65 ft Mk VI Patrol Boat is NOT in the same class as the 1500 ton River class OPV and is only more "heavily armed" in small caliber weapons. Apples and oranges.
    Spain has built some good patrol boats too.

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  11. And we have two Aircraft Carriers as well while UK has just one. Thing is there is not much Geopolitical interest for Spain in Gibraltar really, we are both quite pissed against Argentina therefore military confrontation will be a loss regardless of the actual result to Spain as if we win your navy would be damaged and then if the MERCOSUR situation in the Falklands grows worse, we had just helped the Argies to get their crap islands, and if we lose we lose...and the USA would have shit to ask us if we start playing with a position they will need to move troops to Suez if the war in Bahrain comes to reality, as it seems to be going to...

    Spanish economy is fucked, but look at your debt which is still bigger than ours, and the fact that you will be asked to provide a more substantial help to the USA invasion to Iran if worse comes to worse than us who, I hope at least, will remain neutral means you are not actually interested in things escalating...it is a lose-lose situation that would get us nowhere.

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