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| Lockheed Martin test pilot Al Norman flew F-35A AF-20 (USAF serial number 09-5007) on its inaugural flight on 6 August 2012 from NAS Fort Worth JRB, Texas. |
But a quick question. How do you fight in a fighter that has the aerodynamic performance of a Super Hornet but with the avionics suite of the most advanced fighter known to the public? The dust up with the F-22 vs. Typhoon focused on the close in fight. Wouldn't you have to be stupid as sin to let yourself get into that kind of fight in an F-35? I mean seriously...launch your AIM-120D's at distance and then leave the fight. If pursued then lob AIM-9X's over your shoulder....the fight that the Typhoon got into with the F-22 should be a thing of the past with stealth fighters.
The abilities of current WVR AAMs make the differences in close-in manueverability between fighters almost academic.
ReplyDelete(cue the "but Vietnam showed" crowd)
Why carry AIM-9x when you have AIM-120D. The 120D would have a longer range and a much bigger warhead.
ReplyDeletePretty sure it will carry a mix of each.
DeleteI'd like to see a Block III AIM-9X with RAM Block 2's larger motor.
ReplyDeleteSol, I'd agree, it wouldn't be a great idea to get into a close fight if it can be avoided, but sometimes it happens, sometimes the situation doesn't go as planned, sometimes the AIM-120 fails. I think that's why the F22 was training like that, because in a knife fight, if you can do well against a Typhoon you should be alright most of the time.
ReplyDeleteSpud, cost differences? Ability to carry AIM-9 on the wingtips? design differences for use in WVR? Weight affecting mission duration?
I have noticed in all the recent discussion just how much the US just expects its tech to work, so why train for anything else? I'd think as a Marine Sol you wouldn't take that attitude so much. Shit breaks.
oh yeah shit breaks but if i have a sniper rifle then why am i going to be clearing houses with it? i might be trained for thatt type of fight but i'm not equipped for it. and since the West, not only the US is expecting its tech to work, if we get into situations where it doesn't its time to disengage.
ReplyDeletebesides aerial warfare is turning into something dfferent. close in fighting now isn't what it once was. to be honest wvr fight is mutual suicide. being able to fire over your shoulder, helmet mounted cueing, its all too risky for multimillion dollar airplanes.
@Grim901:
ReplyDelete1. Cost: What's the cost difference when you are putting your F-35 at increased risk due to having to get closer to use the 9x vs the 120D?
2. Wingtips: I was assuming we were talking internal.
3. Use in WVR: The AI-120 family of missiles has had many upgrades over the past few cycles to increase it's HOBS capability for use in WVR. The increased motor size, two way datalink, and larger warhead mean that a 120D is likely to be a more effective WVR weapon than the 9X.
Sol, no by all means, use that Sniper rifle at long range, i'm just saying you should still train and be equipped to clear a house when you're all out of targets in the open or that sniper rifle jams. British army still carry and train with Bayonets, but doesn't mean we're expecting to use them day to day.
ReplyDeleteIf you're AIM-120 misses and you're in a situation where you can't disengage? What if you're flying escort to an AWACS or tanker, run and leave them to die or close for the fight? Real life throws up situations all the time where you cant run from the fight, even though the vast majority of the time the tactics you suggest will work.
Remember WVR and BVR there are countermeasures too, as with all military advances, the defense will advance to match the offense, so BVR may not work and WVR may not be suicide (I assume the F35 has some impressive ECM etc to defend itself right?)
Spud, like I said, sometimes you have no choice in WVR so carrying a top notch WVR missile cant be a bad thing. The fact that it is cheaper cant hurt.
Why assume internal only? Wingtip AIM-9's won't hurt RCS much at all, and even internal weight is still a factor (especially hen you start to look at F35B and bring-back weights).
I'd suggest that there isn't much data on relative WVR effectiveness of 9 vs 120 here, but if a purpose built weapon is not as good as a more multirole weapon i'd be having a serious chat with the designers. I simply can't see your assumption there being right. Not an expert but I doubt you can back up your assumption any more than I can.
I assumed internal only just for the sake of argument. If the threat allows external then I have no problem with external 9X (considering that the 120D cannot go on that pylon).
DeleteAs far as internal, I would never put a 9X internal if it means losing a 120D. A mix of 9X and 120D internal means that you are FORCING the F-35 into WVR after 2 shots instead of giving it the OPTION to go WVR if needed.
The 120D has a longer burn motor, likely has better post burn maneuvering, and is getting a new motor very soon (motor dev due next year).
You will also notice that most strike missions for F-16s are AMRAAM only (with 2-4 AMRAAMs and no 9M/X).
If an F-22 or an F-35 can ever see its target either the pilot or the mission planner should be court-martialed; it just cannot be allowed to happen. This is what's missing from the F-22 vs Typhoon analysis, and it applies to the F-35 too: if F-22/F-35s get into WVR and have a 2-1, 3-1, 4-1 kill ratio the US still loses. Plus if the Typhoon could even just hold the F-22 to a 1 F-22 for 2 Typhoons kill ratio in WVR, what is a Typhoon class plane going to do to the F-35 WVR?
ReplyDeleteStealth aircraft are incredibly expensive and the force structure is being shrunken enormously to free money for them. These two factors mean that the US can no longer afford any kind of loss rate. Any threat air force good enough to justify the F-22 or F-35's cost is going to trade 3-4 SU-35/Mig-29 for one F-22/F-35 in WVR all day long.
The effect of this is that, if the fight is going to continue to WVR, the USAF will have to withdraw and cede the airspace to the opposing air force until a new BVR fight can be initiated. BVR better work (finally) because the USAF has bet the ranch on it.
yeah to be honest i'm expecting the AIM-9X to be phased out of service in the near future and all US planes go with only the AIM-120D.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIt will likely stay for a few reasons.
ReplyDelete1. The F-22 cannot put a 120D in the side bays.
2. The F-18 cannot put a 120D on the wingtip rails.
3. Many helicopters and UCAVs can only mount a 9x class AAM.
4. The F-35 outer rails can only support a 9x class AAM.
I think the 9X will be retained for mopping up 3rd rate threat air force BVR survivors and, like guns were in the last generation, for "just in case" use and, as Spudman points out, a 9X class weapon is designed in to all our platforms.
ReplyDeleteIt's a training exercise guys, not real life. Both sides are looking for training outcomes.
ReplyDeleteIf it were some sort of "free play" scenario, the F-22's would wipe the floor before the Typhoons even knew the F-22's were present. Which would provide exactly zero training for the Typhoon pilots.
So they set up particular scenarios that allow each side to obtain the training outcomes they are looking for. These prove nothing about the capability of the aircraft (or lack thereof as the case may be) as they are entirely artificial constructs.
It is also well-known that "exercise kills" are pointed to as evidence of capability by some manufacturers (predominantly Europoean unfortunately) whereas no-one is try to sell F-22's.
So you get claims like the ones you've seen from this exercise, with nothing more to support them, than the fact that artificial scenarios were created in which the Typhoon did what the scenario constructed intended it to do.
They are useful for 13-15 year old children who wish to thump their chests and proclaim their nation's fighter is THE "uber-fighter".
They are meaningless for anyone serious about such things.
the same could be said for WW2 propaganda. while we look at it today and laugh, the proper utilization of it contributed to the killing of a couple of million Jews. propaganda, no matter how basic is still a tool with a purpose. besides. if it didn't have meaning then the people that are serious about such things (the pilots themselves) woulldn't paint kill markings on there jets.
ReplyDelete