Monday, November 26, 2012

Armor News....

Thanks for the articles Jonathan....


Italian Armor for the Philippines.

MANILA, Philippines - The Department of National Defense (DND) is planning to acquire 100 armored personnel carriers (APC)s and dozens of artillery equipment from Italy in support of the military’s capability upgrade program.Documents obtained by The STAR showed that the Italian government might donate 100 units of operational M113 APCs and 25 units of operational FH70 155 mm howitzers.The possible donations are in connection with the procurement of other equipment that may become part of what the DND called the “Italian package.”The DND is currently negotiating with Italy for the procurement of Maestrale-class ships, medium-lift fixed wing aircraft (C27J-Spartan), special mission aircraft and three naval helicopters.If the procurement pushes through, the 100 APCs and 25 long-range cannons may be included in the package.“In connection with the acquisition of the aforementioned equipment (ships, aircraft, helicopters) the Italian government will donate 100 units operational M113 armored personnel carriers and 25 units operational FH70 155 mm howitzers,” the DND document read.
The shame of it is this would allow civilian workers to pick up some quick money, would get vehicles out of storage to help allies and its something we should be leading on...not the Italians.  Think about it.  How many M-113's, MRAPs, Bradley's and other vehicles do we have in storage that are going to collect dust and eventually be scrapped?  Good on the Italians and boo to us.


Warrior Upgrade is the British Army's #1 Priority. 

The principal upgrades Warrior is receiving with this £1 billion facelift are improvements to its lethality, electronic architecture and modular armour systems. Of the three, Pietralski said all were important but picked out lethality as being particularly prominent.“The biggest priority is on the lethality side. We’re incorporating a 40mm cannon that will enable the crew to have a fire and move capability, which is something the current platform can’t achieve.”Pritchard stressed the importance of this capability, saying that “it’s just something we haven’t been able to do before” and underscored why WSCP is the critical project for the Army.On the commercial side Lockheed Martin was keen to stress the importance of its supply chain in delivering this contract and announced that it had opened a dedicated new facility at Nuneaton with its engineering partner, MIRA.Lockheed will need to work closely with its partners as WCSP represents a step-change in the MoD’s reliability requirements. It’s something that is at the forefront of the team’s mind, especially that of Colin Gilding , WCSP programme manager, who said that “reliability is a big part of this programme … it permeates every decision we make.”Pietralski agrees: “The key challenge for WCSP is to provide a reliable platform … [to] ensure it’s capable, not only for tomorrow but well into 2040.” He explained that Lockheed is implementing rigorous testing procedures at every stage and is looking all the way down to the sub-system level to achieve the reliability required.
Interesting.  They believe the move to a 40mm cannon will give them lethality that the 30mm cannon lacks?  I'd love to see the testing that led to this conclusion.  I also have doubts about the IFV concept.  APC's are the future, the infantry is too well armed and when you have legacy weapons that are upgraded capable of penetrating a tank (RPG-29) then it makes sense to deposit infantry short of the objective.  Read it all over at Defense IQ.


VAB Mk3. for export?

PARIS — Renault Trucks Defense (RTD) plans to open a new assembly line for the Véhicule Avant Blindé (VAB) Mk3, an upgraded version of its troop carrier aimed at export markets, which are forecast to make up at least half of the company’s annual sales by 2015, said Chief Executive Gérard Amiel.On Oct. 25, RTD, part of the Swedish Volvo commercial trucks group, completed the 538 million Swedish krona ($79 million) acquisition of Panhard General Defense, the French maker of light armored vehicles. The Panhard acquisition is a move toward RTD’s target of making 700 million euros ($888.6 million) in annual sales by 2015 and is seen as a step toward consolidation in the French land systems industry.RTD is part of Volvo’s government sales division, which has a target of 1 billion euros of annual sales by 2015.The plan to add production, announced Nov. 14, is highly unusual, given the economic crisis hitting Western economies. Carmakers Renault and PSA Peugeot Citroen have seen new car sales collapse, and there is much debate over a deindustrialization of the French economy.The new line will be at the Fourchambault site, in central France, the maintenance center for the French Army’s 4,000-strong fleet of VABs. Amiel declined to give financial details of the investment.RTD developed the VAB Mk3 with its own funds for foreign markets. Under the company’s plan, exports will make up 50 percent to 60 percent of annual sales.“The VAB Mk3 was developed for export,” Amiel said.
I'm not sure that the VAB will be competitive.  Too many other vehicles are available that match its price point yet offer more.  This might be a case of wishful thinking.  Read more here. 


18 comments :

  1. Sol,
    Don't be sad about the Philippines getting war equipment. That's not the issue. The issues are:

    1. Can the Philippines know how to use these equipments?
    2. Can the Philippines know how to MAINTAIN these equipments?

    Case in point, the Philippines purchased some S211 from Italy some time back (1980 or 90) and they just kept crashing due to lack of maintenance and in one case, sugar was put into the fuel. In the end, the Philippines bartered them to Singapore.

    The Philippine DoD is rife with corruption. Parts will go missing, funds will be misapproriated.

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    1. i'm not sad about them getting war equipment, i'm sad that we aren't the ones providing it! you made several good points and i don't have an answer for any of them except to say that the Philippine Marine Corps has maintained their LVTP-5's long after they've been retired in other places so i think keeping armored vehicles running might be a bit easier than aircraft.

      the only other thing i would say is that the Philippines are looking down a Chinese rifle barrel so they have extra motivation to get it done the right way now.

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    3. ok. that last part has me curious as hell. congratulations. you just made researching the defense situation in the Philippines a priority. i was thinking about things with the idea that the M113's would be of use against the Islamist in the south...to think that weaponry was sold to them is just wild. i don't doubt you, just want to learn more myself. question though. i haven't highlighted it but SOCOM has a real big presence there. how's that mission going?

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    4. I don't think the Philippine government ever takes seriously the threat from PRoC. I mean, a handful of new Type 45 can eradicate the Philippine Navy and what's left of the Philippine AF in a few hours.

      Now that the PLAN has demonstrated that they can land a J-15 fighter on to their first carrier, when this Spratley Island issue should ever spring up again, they just send two of these J-15 overhead and ...

      The Philippine defense force is waaaaay out of league. When a shooting war should happen between the Armed Forces of the Philippines and PLA/PLAAF/PLAN, there's no chance in hell that a "draw" outcome will eventuate. The AFP will pay a heavy price (material-wise).

      My personal outlook would've not been like this had the USAF still had bases available in Subic and Clark AFB.

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    5. Uh-oh. Sorry Sol. I just deleted my previous comment when I noticed you've posted a response.

      My sincerest apologies.

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    6. I didn't say that an M-113 was sold to the separatists. What I meant was that some "loose" items were. Ranging from rifles, mortars, radio equipment, etc.

      I remembered reading an article about SOCOM operating in the south after 911 and they were mortified to see how easy for terrorist from Indonesia to sneak into the Philippines during daytime with ease.

      They trained a light infantry company who went to bush for months at a time to hunt down Abu Sayaf. Word has it that SOCOM personally provided food and ammunition as they were airdropped and didn't trust the Filipino field commanders to feed and support the LI operators. That's how LI were able to catch up with them several times.

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    7. don't apologize. i'm getting an education on a future hotspot. the world doesn't realize it but the US might not be there for all the nations that need help and with energy independence coming for the US the Spratly islands dispute might turn into a flashpoint that has no US interests at stake.

      its a brave new world.

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    8. The Phillipines have had 20+ years to develop a military that didn't depend upon the US and have made zero progress. In fact, they've arguably regressed in that time.

      Now that they realize the Chinese are serious about enforcing claims over the Spratlys, the Phillipines are starting to realize that they can't afford to defend their own nation alone.

      They have no modern fighters to defend their airspace, they have no modern surface vessels to defend their sea lanes and their Coast Guard operates retired US and Japanese patrol vessels.

      If they acquire the Italia Maestrales corvettes, these 30 year old craft will be the most modern ships the Phillipines have.

      They have 120000 personnel in the active duty military, but that is way too big to be practical.

      It needs a top to bottow reform and acquisition plan.

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    9. this might sound crazy but after a dictator gets taken down, i'm willing to give beginning democracy's a chance to gain there footing. 20 years isn't really that long to get a functioning govt together.

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    10. @Paralus: The Armed Forced of the Philippines (AFP) doesn't have any fighter/attack aircraft that can come within 20 kms to a PRoC FFG. The only "fast" jet is an old F-5A that can't do any more 2+ G turns because it may literally fall apart due to metal fatigue.

      Let me see, sea asset. The "newest" are some US CG offshore patrol vessel that was handed over this year by the US government. No ammunition for the 2.5 in guns. .50 cal? Sure, if there's ammo and if the guns were maintained. May not have enough funds to load enough fuel for a one-way-trip to a shooting war over the Spratley Islands with PRoC or Vietnam.

      Rotary? Well there are some MBB-105 and UH-1B/H and some MD500. The UH-1B/H have, in the past, been refurbished out of Singapore (due to lack of skills in the Philippines and lack of trust by the Americans).

      As you can see, the American government has provided the AFP with weapons and materials that PRoC and USSR has GOTTEN or seen before. So if it's something soooooo new, fat chance of that will happen.

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  2. The Phillipine deal is just sweetening the pot for the ships.

    What is the price point of the VAB Mk3? I see it more as a Bushmaster rival as opposed to a Patria.

    As for IFV's, it might be different, but your point of IFV vs. APC brings into question the need to revisit doctrine as to how armor should be employed.

    Are IFV's a sort of a mobile version of a heavy-weapons unit to provide supporting fires to infantry?

    Are APCs being used more as the Namers with the ability to accompany tanks and penetrate into enemy strongpoints?

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    1. hmmm. i don't know about the ships at all...time will tell, but my thinking is that we're seeing the death of the IFV in armies the world over. the NAMER is the heaviest APC in existence and the Israeli's are still insisting on a Trophy type system to be attached to it. same with the US Army with the GCV...80 tons but they still want a trophy type system...

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    2. No matter the thickness, weight or type of armor, after 2006 and watching all of those Merkavas being hit with multiple ATGWs, an active defense system must be part of any new armored vehicle.

      APC, IFV, MBT, MRAP, it's just going to be part of any vehicle.




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    3. you might be right but i do know that during the run into baghdad several M-1's shook off multiple hits from rpg's and guided missiles. the Brits faced the same with their tanks and one got struck over 20 times and the crew survived and still fought the vehicle. but its stunning that an 80 ton vehicle still needs active defense...

      say that out loud. 80 tons. wow.

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  3. Now that is a great statement. Couldn't agree more Fariha.

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  4. Sol, while I totally agree ref the MICV / IFV concept versus an APS with an RWS equipped with 12.7mm or a 40mm AGL, THE 40mm Case Telescoped Ammunition cannon from CTAI does have a considerably bigger round than a standard 30mm.

    This will provide the kinetic energy punch to keep it APFSDS round relevant against armour, and its air bursting HE round is meant to take on infantry behind cover etc. look it up on YouTube

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  5. First line should have said APC sorry

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