Wednesday, December 05, 2012

Brits considering scrapping AH-64's.


The Brits continue to confuse me.  Talk to any of their Bloggers and they'll proudly tell you that the British model of the Apache is the most advanced version flying.  To be quite honest the same claim was made by some of its pilots if I recall correctly...but as soon as the US Army plans to upgrade to an "Echo" version the first thought is to scrap them and possibly acquire Tiger Attack Helicopters??

Quite honestly I'd put that helicopter behind the AH-1Z...far behind it and possibly behind the A129 Mangusta and the S. African Rooivalk.

via the Telegraph.

 Britain’s Apache gunships have been in use since 2001, seeing action in Afghanistan - where current pilots include Prince Harry - and in Libya.
Despite the helicopters’ successes on the frontline, defence sources suggested that the Army Air Corps fleet of 66 Apaches could eventually be cut to around 50 aircraft fit for operations.
Britain’s American-made AH-64D helicopters face becoming redundant because the US has decided to stop using the AH-64D model and adopt a newer variant, the AH-64E.
That means essential technical support for the British Apache fleet will be withdrawn from 2017.
  As a result, ministers must decide whether to upgrade some or all of the British helicopters to the new US standard, or to replace them outright.
Defence officials and Army officers are finalising their assessment of the technical options in an exercise entitled the Apache Capability Sustainment Programme, or AH CSP.
Officials are due to present ministers with a list of detailed options in the New Year, with final decisions expected in 2014.
Colonel Andrew Cash, the commander of the army's attack helicopter force, set out the options for the Capability Sustainment Programme in a recent public lecture.
“The AH CSP is designed to address the sustainment issue that this raises, and provide the required capability, training and support out to 2040,” said Col Cash, the commanding officer of 16 Air Assault Brigade.
“The technical options are being evaluated, and I expect a decision on the way ahead for assessment by early next year," the commander told the Royal Aeronautical Society.
Listing the options for the programme, he said: "Do nothing; do the minimum; technology insertion based on the current airframes; update to the US AH-64E standard, or this standard but with UK-specific equipment; or an entirely new replacement attack helicopter.”
Some analysts have suggested that the UK could decide to replace its US-made Apaches with the European-made Tiger helicopter, which is currently used by the French and German armies.
Military sources said that the Tiger would be strongly opposed by British commanders, who regard it is inferior to the Apache. That means the Ministry of Defence is likely to focus on an Apache upgrade programme.

However, modernising existing aircraft is often extremely costly, and insiders expect that the MoD will be unable to afford to upgrade all 66 Apaches.
The MoD has refused to say how many of the Apaches will be upgraded, leaving open the possibility that some of the fleet will be left unmodified and effectively redundant from 2017.
The MoD said: "There are no plans to remove the Apache capability, on the contrary we plan to update and upgrade the fleet. The number required after 2017 will be taken according to operational requirements.
“Decisions regarding the future structure of the Apache fleet will not have an impact on the current operations of the Apache fleet.” 
The more I think about this the more I believe it has to be some type of gambit to gain a larger share of their defense budget.  The Israeli's and others operate the AH-64---unique models at that---and aren't considering scrapping them.  Additionally Boeing would provide service support to the Brit helos so its just got to be some type of game.

9 comments :

  1. Don't worry Sol it's total bullshit. They say the cost of upgrading them could be high so they may not all be upgraded. I'm not sure where the jump to buying Tiger's comes from in the article to be honest. It simply won't happen.

    The real question is what upgrade route the UK will take. We currently have some differing equipment to the US that currently makes it superior, it may be that we upgrade that rather than returning to the US standards with the upgrade. The other question will be how much of fleet gets upgraded.

    Either way the support will still be there (even without upgrading), unless Boeing doesn't like making money anymore that is.

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    1. this the same paper that carried an article earlier in the year which included a photo and interview of an army technician on an army camp who repaired the RAF apache!! FFS typical civvie journalist writing the article in the bar at lunchtime relying on wikki for their "facts"

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  2. A very comprehensive overview here:

    http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/ah-csp-extending-apache-out-to-2040.html

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  3. AH-1Z is an old helicopter with no modern avionics; Mangusta and Rooivalk ain't modern either. They play with 20mm guns only. They don't even have a good performing sighting system. the only big advantage of Mangusta is its great engine power reserve.
    Now look at the Tiger in Afg, where it proved its capability and its performance on combat.

    "Some analysts have suggested that the UK could decide to replace its US-made Apaches with the European-made Tiger helicopter, which is currently used by the French and German armies."
    Of course they have to considerall options: it's their job. But it would be stupid to scrap helicopters that aren't even old.

    "Military sources said that the Tiger would be strongly opposed by British commanders, who regard it is inferior to the Apache."
    Did you read Ed Macy's books? They're sufficient to convince anybody in the UK of the performance of Apache.
    Nevertheless, you just don't use Apache and Tiger in the same way. The first is a flying "Panzer", the second is extremely agile and accurate.

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    1. Dude, you better do some friggin' research before you post complete idiocy on the net. The AH1Z is currently using the MOST advanced targeting system to date. The Thales "Top Owl" helmet being used by it's pilots alone already gives it an edge over it's Army and European counterparts.It's also way more versatile than both the Tiger and the Apache, with it's weapons compliment ranging from a "puny" high-velocity 20 mm ( which will nevertheless punch holes thru the most advanced tank's top armor ) to laser guided missiles, TOWs, ARMs and, to top it all, AIM9X Sidewinders. Which means the Viper can shoot down Apaches, Tigers and JET FIGHTERS within a 10 mile radius.
      Yep, the AH1Z sure is an "old" helicopter.

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  4. SURELY buying Tigers has to be more expensive than upgrading the Apaches. I have to imagine that's a pretty far fetched idea. The Brits are just as bad off financially speaking as the rest of Europe and the US are.

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  5. "AH-1Z is an old helicopter with NO MODERN AVIONICS"

    Bullshit.

    The AH-1Zulu has more advanced sensors and avionics than an Apache, and yes far more advanced than a 1980's Eurocopter. I'm not saying that's what the UK should get, I am saying you should research before you post something that is credibility suicide.

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  6. Hi Solomon

    This Apache story appeared in The Daily Telegraph newspaper. The Ministry of Defence were quick to issue a rebuttal:


    "The Telegraph has today run a story suggesting that the Army's Apache fleet could be cut due to the US military's decision to use a newer variant of the aircraft. The article quotes Colonel Andrew Cash, the commanding officer of the Army's attack helicopter force, explaining that options for the future adaptation of the Apache force were being considered as part of an Apache Capability Sustainment Programme. The article also suggests that the UK might decide to replace the Apache with Tiger helicopters.

    There are no plans to remove the Apache capability; in fact we plan to update and upgrade the fleet. The number required after 2017 will be decided according to operational requirements.

    Decisions regarding the future structure of the Apache fleet will not have an impact on its current operations."

    Who would have thought you can't believe everything you read in the papers?

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    1. Sadly the British papers keep writing inaccurate and misleading articles. I am not sure if it is a new trend or I am wiser.

      Opinion3

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