Quite honestly I've been wanting to do a post on this subject...
1. On why we haven't heard anything from preppers that went through the Sandy.
2. Why I think most preppers are doing it wrong.
The first got answered. You can go here to read a list of one survivors experiences...a few tidbits though...
*You quickly become the guy in the neighborhood who knows how to wire a generator to the electrical panel, directly wire the furnace to a small generator, or get the well pump up and running on inverter power or you are the guy whose Master’s degree in Accounting suddenly means nothing. (Love you Steve!)*I was surprised how many things run on electricity!*. If you do not have water stored up you are in trouble.If you check out most prepping videos on YouTube they always focus on firearms/get home bags/bug out vehicles etc...That's just not how things normally work.
- a. A couple of cases of bottled water is “NOT” water storage
Bugging in will more than likely be the default position for most people. So making your home "fortified" as in livable in a power down situation makes sense. Additionally guns and bags are neat. They're fun. They're hobbies in most cases.
A gun for use by preppers is a self defense and harvesting tool. You can defend yourself from two legged vermin and you can use it to harvest food. To emphasize your hobby instead of actually preparing for bad times will cost alot of people. Most notably is water. That's one of my take aways from the Sandy Storm. When the grid goes down, water goes away. And unfortunately we use a helluva lot more than we realize. I'm personally going to try and determine how much I use a day and then plan accordingly. Something tells me that those 55 gallon water containers I've been looking at will get pushed up in priorities.
Food is another take away. I'll never forget the lady saying that she was gonna die unless she got help. That's another pressure on your water supply. Food prep and sanitation. Having enough food to last for at least a month should be the baseline from the experience with Sandy. Quite honestly, probably two months should be the base. USGOV website talking 72 hours is unmitigated bullshit. Even winter storms cause outages that last longer.
Last but not least the biggest takeaway was that during these type situations the last place I want to be is in a government shelter. I can't confirm the stories but if you search the internet you'll see stories that make prison look as welcoming as some of the places they were sheltering people. I also remember the issues with Katrina and personally vow that I will never let myself or loved ones become "wards" of the state or federal government.
Preppers. We're doing it wrong. Time to go back to the drawing board.
*Note* For those of you that don't prep, no problem. I'm sure you'll be fine.
Alpha Rubicon......
ReplyDeleteall over that website. good info.
DeleteGreat post--always more to think about and learn.
ReplyDelete72 is BS. We get storms in CO that knock out food distribution and the shelves go bare. Most folks here have learned but sadly, many will not no matter how lessons they have.
Water use can be tricky. In the moments before an event you may be able to store water in anything that will hold; bathtubs, buckets, pots/pans. During a sustained crisis your city water may be suitable for flushing/bathing but not drinking.
Keeping bleach and a good filtering system on hand can help.
Also, if you flush a toilet, without a water supply, you will get sewer gas coming back into your home as the trap is left open. Unpleasant and deadly.
BLEACH! forgot about that.
DeleteSeveral years ago we had one of those storms that are beyond what we normally have in winter. Normally the temperatures are mild here as I speak it's Dec. and the temperature is 71 f. rarely does a snow storm drop more than three inches max on us.
ReplyDeleteThe storm brought blizzard type conditions with three feet of snow which turned to ice We don't have the need for snow plows in the south so everything shut down for a week. We lost our power for a week and our well pump did not work we had probably 2,000 gallons of water in the well but it was 40' feet down the pump is an inside job so no room to haul water by bucket and rope.
I stored water for the horses in a 55 gallon barrel but it was frozen at the top and could not be accessed easy. The horses water trough became our toilet flush water. Water was our most desperate need. We camped a lot and so had camping gear out the wazzoo (WTF is a Wazzoo anyway?)We had propane lanterns four of them and a propane stove our heat was propane space heater so we were warm and fed and could melt ice for water to drink. flushing the toilet was the hardest to arrange We implemented the if it's yellow let it mellow if it's brown flush it down regime.
The first trip to the store found the shelves empty of propane cylinders and every other light source and cooking/heating fuel
and water I was glad I had the foresight to stock up on propane cylinders.
I had plenty of guns and ammo but never had to use either one.
This isn't exactly a survival type situation because I am in the south and I knew it would warm up again to the normal 58 f eventually.
What I learned was, stock up on propane tanks, have a propane or kerosene space heater, store more water. for toilet flushing it does not have to be potable so a large storage can be done.
Having a method to cook on helps more than one lantern and stove.
Now if it's a total nationwide disaster I plan on going to ground right here I will not go to a designated shelter unless it's the last chance, there you lose your supplies and weapons and are under someone else's control who may not have all his shit together.
WATER is the hardest item to store and is the number one priority of survival supplies.
I have been pricing up water tanks I think many in the West don't realise how much water they use during the day. I am working on a minimum of 10 gallons per day and that is a real minimum.
DeleteAnd I have been looking at propane too. The larger portable cylinders last a long time if you limit yourself to so many 15 minute uses for cooking. Heating is another problem. The only workable solution for me would be to hunker everybody in the smallest room (only one external side on the lea side of the house ) and wear lots of clothing which isn't ideal. I have been looking at schemes where have two cylinder for cooking and two cylinders for baking bread (and contingency). I suppose I had better add on another two for heating; again not ideal. My prepping is all about "bugging in" in a pandemic like situation. Not sure how successful I would be. There is a fine line between survival and sinking.
Zebra Dunn.
Deletegood point on the use of -- i don't know if its called grey or whatever water for flushing. we're in the same boat. i live in the south but a little winter storm will cause shut downs just like 18 inches up north. also a good thing about propane. i'm going to be looking at that as an alternate heating source. as big a concern is cooling in the summer. high temps and humidity and it will be a challenge.
Steve.
totally agree but we're focusing on winter cause we're in winter. summer poses its own challenges.
Here abouts we deal with power outages in the summer with Mint, Ice Tea and lemon or a Beer under the shade tree in the swing. LOL
DeleteFinding a way to hook up propane to service every propane capable device would be good or to be able to fill small tanks from the big ones.
I have a lantern attachment that will fit the top of the small bar-b-cue type tanks on a meter high pipe with fittings works great as a stand up light source.
Magneto charging flash lights and radios are good too.
Yes, it's called grey water from tub baths and dish washing there are tanks specially made to catch and store rainwater from the house gutters it has a bug proof top to keep the skeeters out that would work if the air stays uncontaminated.
Prepper stories from Sandy have been a bit conspicuous by their absence haven't they? I have had chats with several of the well known preppers on YouTube. They poke their head above the parapet so are the easiest to "contact". They are not all obsessed with guns and bags but you are right many are more interested in equipment for the sake of ownership that use. The fascination with bags I find the most amusing. Considering the distances you guys travel in the US (even with what you term local) I would consider a get home bag prudent. What I can reconcile is how some will spend $400 on a handgun to pack in their car just in case they won't spend the same amount on decent jacket and boots. Keeping warm and your feet comfortable will go you at home as the weather and terrain are always present while the hooded goblin may not be. They bag on about weight too. If you are walking say thirty miles (which with decent boots should be no problem) then blow the weight. Food and bivy bag come first. But no these bods would rather go light for trick tools (dude, $150 knife really to save an ounce? really?) they won't need and forget the fundamentals. Sure have a gun but do you really need to spend money on something new just because, and then was lyrical because you got it cheap? That's false economy.
ReplyDeleteThen there is the home defense verse "combat" dilemma. We all know given a choice between a 9mm and AR we would take the AR. Taking a handgun to a gunfight is problem worse than taking a knife to a gunfight! (Joke!) But come on the worse thing the average untrained civilian like me could do is leave the house and "fight". The house is known territory. Doors and windows won't stop a determined aggressor for long, but they give you a perimeter and it is your home ground. As for ARs for the great unwashed lumpen masses I have questioned it too in the role of occasional home defence gun. Rifle skills degrade less than pistol skills that are hard to acquire and keep current and for that reason mean that the handgun for the majority for home defence to my mind is a non starter. But I think the AR is too much. Home defense isn't infantry combat. It is one or three shots delivered at close range. Does the average American home owner need a 300m capable rifle he doesn't practice with and whose ammunition isn't at price to be squandered? But mention the pistol calibre carbine to the prepper gods and it is like your proposing taking away the Second Amendment. All the advantages of rifle without the cost and much manageable and probably appropriate in 99.99% of occasions.
And that leads me onto another security aspect that seems to baffle most preppers when I talk to them, static defences. It seems many would rather spend, again, $500 on yet another handgun than put security lights in place, fences stop free movement, small bay windows so you can see your perimeter without leaving the house (I read my Jeff Cooper!) etc. Soldiers and Marines have two fundamental skills, one is too fight, and two is to dig holes and sit in them while bad stuff flies all around. Most preppers don't seem to set much store by the latter. I spoke to one guy once and asked why he had gun in his bed side table. He told me it was so he could pick it instantly at the first sign of trouble. I asked why he didn't have a long arm and his reply was it would take too long to access. I said well why don't you put a door on your stairs, lock it once everybody goes to bed, and then you will have plenty of time to get a long arm? Most burglars aren't going to climb up a storey they will go for a ground floor entry. That idea was unsafe and silly. What about fire he said could he unlock it in time if he was half asleep. So he felt that unsafe that he needed a gun by his bed, but didn't want to give himself time to get a real gun by putting a passive defensive measure in place, and yet in another situation just as a dangerous he wouldn't trust himself to act quickly. Go figure.
Steve: Good points.
DeleteMy personal rifle for the impending doom is a Winchester M-94 30/30 I stock my ammo for it in 170 gr for game and 125 gr for any assailants of the human variety.
The 30/30 can be had in bullet weights and charges as small as 100 gr and even the lighter 55 gr W/sabot for use on small game.
The lever action is common as is the round here and should you have to travel into town or around authorities it won't attract to much attention as an AR or a battle rifle would.
The AR/M-16 or M-1A1 is better at fighting and can bring down game the ammo easy to find but the cops are going to see that weapon as a threat and disarm you. Pistols, the go to handy weapon is a S&W M-640 an early model in .38 spl, five shot, stainless and hammer less it conceals really well and can be fired from a pocket or handbag. The wife uses this one so it's always handy.
Defensive pistols are the .45 ACP Colt Gov model series 70 and a couple of other revolvers colt and S&W.
Beucoup .22 lr rifles a few shotguns auto and doubles with single barrels.
I acquired these at random with no thought to a pattern for survival just as a hobby. Except for the Win. 30/30 and the M-640 and the .45 ACP. Those were for business in a SHTF or robbery situation.
Don't overlook Bows and arrows, slingshots with steel balls to shoot and arrows many, many of them!
BAGS: one man can carry about 85 lbs full load a woman estimated at 45 lb I have two horses and could use them for hauling, bicycles MTB's can be used to carry cargo Ho Chi Minh trail type but frankly grabbing a 150 lb bag and running for the refuge is not on my agenda.
Digging in, Yup foxholes and bunkers nothing fancy, big hole, sandbag walls under a metal roofing covered with soil and camo to hide it. I have looked into placing a new and unused septic tank with tar on the outside placed in the ground as a shelter but the cost is about the same as for a ready built shelter as in the fiberglass tornado shelters.
Any house is a target in SHTF conditions especially when it has power and supplies bad guys would want.
Study your land and place the bunker in a place away from the main house and cammie it up well. Our house is on the roadside of a rural road so I would plan on abandoning the structure ASAP living only from the bunker.
let the baddies loot it at will but take everything you value out.Defend your bunker at all costs.
There is no cartridge like the .30/30. It isn't common in the UK, but not exactly rare to the point of being exotic. Marlin 336 are a good buy here; oddly .30/30 preowned guns always seem to have a quantity of ammunition include or the reloading dies included in the price.
DeleteIf I was really worried about needing to be armed for SHTF I would go for a.........Browning BLR in .308win. (Stop laughing at the back! Semi-autos are illegal here.) 7.62x51mm military surplus is common here for a good price as are reloading components at about 45p-ish (67c-ish) a shot.I have seen BLR in .223 but I think it unwise to use 5.56 in a .223 chambered arm. I know many don't give a monkeys about such but I just don't think it wise.
Steve
ReplyDeleteWater is a tricky one.
During one of its wars with Egypt, Israel delivered one litre PER HOUR to its soldiers.
I'm sure water came up as a big problem at Wannat?
But those are hot and dry places.
I drink two litres of water a day at work and everyone thinks I'm off my rocker, people might have two or three cups of coffee, and thats it.
I might see how long I can go without drinking anything, but its difficult to set up (four days without food and I was a little peckish and had maintained work rate, which is low)
Oddly, sheep in new zealand get all their water from dew on the grass.
Just some boring incoherant thoughts for you there.....
I'm not sure I would want two locked doors to bypass to get out in case of a fire, but we have baby gates EVERYWHERE.
I think partly its a matter of taking things seriously.
Its *easy* to spend a chunk of money on toys and pop them in the garage.
Its downright inconvenient to kill the power at the breaker, hide the car keys and say right, storms hit, wont be dug out for a week.
They aren't boring or incoherent thoughts......
DeleteIt is a "levels" things. On one level a will admit I like the idea of having a decent firearm (I mean semi-auto long arm or pistol in combat calibre) to hand. On another level; living in the UK in a semi-rural location it would be extraordinary for me to really "need" one. But if I did need one I hope I would think it through and put other measures in place to maximise the advantage of the firearm, protect others in the house, and come out the end the other end. Just having a handgun in the latest fashionable calibre isn't enough. That door on the stairs would be perfectly safe if there was thought. Self sustaining lights. Florescent paint on the upside; the door could be secured against the wall during the day so the fluorescent paint isn't seen. Large easy to handle bolts. All doable. Leaving a route for the bad guys to reach you unimpeded, wake up, orientate yourself, grab your weapon, and straight into combat is a bit much of an ask for about 99.99% of the population. If the situation is that bad you believe you need a firearm then you need to take other measures too. Or there is a good chance you will be shot with your own gun and you get to evaluate the latest fashionable pistol calibre from the wrong end.
Hey Sol if you need water storage look at Sam's online. I actually found they are selling prepping supplies.
ReplyDeletei've been looking around and will add Sam's to the list. i'm thinking multiple 55 gallon water containers. problem? that's heavy! additionally finding a good place to store them...and then making sure that over the long term the water stays potable. just some stuff to figure out but we'll see and i'll post it so we can all compare notes.
DeleteLook into a barrel truck the hand type that is used to move 55 gallon drums.
DeleteJust figure 55 gal. and add ten-10% chlorine bleach unscented.
Or use Iodine (Yuck like a canteen with water pure tablets) if you have a way to boil water any water can be potable get a filter and you got clean water.
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/material-handling/drum-barrel/drum-handling/drum-truck-with-two-wheels-30-55-gallon-drums
DeleteBarrel truck, solid wheels no air tire to have to re inflate.
check out Sams they sell water storage now.
ReplyDeleteSorry Sol but i double posted. I can't remember if I saw this on your site before but its a water bob.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.waterbob.com/Welcome.do;jsessionid=4790F955EB614AE4FF7769E9C1DF16FE
Its only $20 at cheaper than dirt and hold 100 gallons. It is good for those that know a bad storm is coming and you may lose power.
Some plans you guys have. More people will die from fires and CO poisoning than from exposure or lack of food/water. As a fireman, I've seen plenty of deaths from CO and propane fueled fires. Keeping drums of gasoline or propane in the house/attached garage is a recipe for disaster.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of those who died in Katrina were killed outright by trauma/drowning or were elderly and incapable of caring for themselves. Even the 20 or so they found dead that may have suffered from starvation or thirst were elderly people trapped in attics or upper floors. Since most preppers don't store their food/water/guns in the attic, they would have died too.
The preppers will have enough guns and supplies to survive until they get overrun by the desperate, or kill themselves through failed fire and disease prevention.
first no one except you is stupid enough to store gas or propane in or near there house. who are you dealing with? idiots? sorry the crowd i run with have common sense, life and actual experience. second, did you not notice that the rule of law went out the window with Sandy? looters and looting was widespread. last. if you don't believe in prepping then fine, but notice that the US GOV is recommending it. but you're a fire fighter and saying don't? what a buffoon.
Deletethe more i think about your post the more pissed off i get. you're talking about being a civil servant and instead of encouraging self sufficiency you're talking against it?
Deletewhere do you live? KALIFORNIA? why you would even think about telling people NOT to do something instead of recommending ways they could do it better tells me everything i need to hear about you. oh and a sidenote...i was part of the teams that assisted in Katrina. don't tell me about what you don't know about. the SuperDome was a nightmare and the stories were indeed tragic. i wouldn't wish anyone but you to be part of that nightmare. families were separated with out a wit given because it was more important for the government to move people and some officials got off on the power.
sorry buddy but never will me and mine suffer that fate. not if i have anything to say about it.
All I can say if I lived in his town and I needed a fire truck I just hope he isn't working. I can imagine it now,
Delete"Let them burn they probably had miserable lives anyway....."
"More people will die from fires and CO poisoning than from exposure or lack of food/water. As a fireman, I've seen plenty of deaths from CO and propane fueled fires. Keeping drums of gasoline or propane in the house/attached garage is a recipe for disaster."
DeleteI don't think he was being snarky the stats are true people will bring in charcoal grills or light fires in the fireplace with gas even in the south we have people who kill themselves and their entire families doing this it's dumber than shit but Lawds it happens every time we have a power outage!
I store my flammables and combustibles in an area that is safe and well hidden, using propane inside means open a window at least four inches high in another room to ventilate.
You only require a temperature above 40 f to survive and that doesn't create much heat or fumes.
The people who would do this are the ones who die in every disaster by misadventure and being uninformed and dumb.
Waiting till the water gets too high to wade, too polluted to swim in and taking shelter in an attic without a axe or at least a floggin' hammer to bash their way out is stupid but folks do it, hold Hurricane parties even!
Hell, who lives in a 30 foot deep bowl at sea level and doesn't even own any kind of boat?
Stupid people, and dead people.
Attics are a good idea and very underutilized. In the medieval period each citizen within the city was required to store grain, salt, etc in their attic for sieges.
DeleteEven people who don't live near water run the risk of having a basement get flooded due to rain, so storing food in the lowest place isn't always a great idea.
Plus, most houses don't utilize attic space efficiently and these are mainly places for insulation, not serious storage.
Sol, you are so easy to set off. you need to relax bro. I'm all for self sufficiency, but people need to address the common threats before worrying about the apocalypse. I have water and food stored, a weapon, etc, but I'm more concerned with the everyday threats. I'm a retired Marine and now a firefighter, I can take care of myself and my family if things go bad.
DeletePeople are stupid, if they weren't I wouldn't have a job. We have the equivalent of an apocalyptic event every year from stupidity: 3000+ people die in house fires annually because they took the batteries out of their smoke detectors, 30K die every year in accidents because they didn't wear their seat belt, drove drunk, or failed to wear a helmet on a motorcycle. I'm more worried about drunk drivers than being left high and dry in a storm. That said, I'm in the midwest, the threat isn't the same either.
Why do so many people focus on 1 event? I'm a police officer and saw how people treated each other when our state welcomed the Katrina people, sorry really they didn't care about the people the wanted the Feds money, who on a regular basis rapped and assaulted each other on a daily basis.
ReplyDeletePeople prepare for the type of disasters that may hit their area. I live in a part of Texas where if I am hiding in my attic from water most of the country is screwed. I am preparing for a tornado, unusual winter storm, or anything that could knock my power out for a month or better. I only wish we could get some damn rain at this moment...
We don't get extreme weather here in the UK. I should say where I live there are some who have real difficulty with flooding. The worse that can happen is a few days of zub-zero (that is below 32F) weather and to have no power or food. My worry is because we are so densely packed in is pandemic. If I had baying crowds at my door then the game would be so you can't plan for that event. If we resorted to having to shoot a mass of the desperate then it would be more to take some of them with us more than to do any real good.
DeleteROFL Yup, floods ain't my worry I'm on high ground 1400 ft ASL and the highest hill in the county is only 1600 ft ASL if I have to swim out The entire Southeast would be under water and in deep Kimchee.
DeleteSTEVE: Remeber the Taxi driver in 28 days later?
DeleteHelmet Riot shield, baton or spear (like the home guard circa 1940) or a cricket bat/baseball bat.
http://www.home-guard.org.uk/hg/pics/hgpike02.jpg
On the gun side of things I'd say for most a shotgun would be the best all around firearm if you are bugging in. Lets face it most that are starting to get into prepping are not gun nuts and have not been shooting since they had to have their grandpa hold up the front end of a .22 so they could sight in a target.
ReplyDeleteA shotgun is a great 50 yards or less gun. Most think they will snipe hoards of people from their roof top, but as is shown most gun fights happen in 7yrds or less. Why not have a gun that you only have to hit the person to cause massive damage than accurate as hell to cause damage to a small portion of the body. The other upside is they are cheap. You can get a brand new pump shotgun for under $400. For what you will spend on an AR you can get a shotgun either 12 or 20 gauge a .22 rifle for hunting if you can and a 22 pistol that can also be used for hunting squirrels and other small game.