Sorry.
You're gonna hate me but I'm only the messenger.
Burning down the house instead of attempting an arrest is unconstitutional. It goes against what is expected of Law Enforcement and goes against all that is right.
This happened in America. Not on a foreign battlefield.
They deployed burners....Just like they talked about....
You're an idiot if you don't take away a couple of serious lessons from this incident....the Police are now virtually an occupation army....every prior incident, Ruby Ridge, Waco etc should be looked at with knowledge that law enforcement will assasinate individuals without a second thought....and last but not least the default position of law enforcement is to do any and everything to protect themselves.
Dorner's naivete is what doomed him.
In the end he thought that they would play by the rules.
In the end he was wrong.
UPDATE:::
Time the fuck out! I've been getting hit by people saying that this guy was a terrorist. Are you shitting me? He was a murderer, a fool, a misguided idiot that couldn't handle the lumps that everyone goes through but a terrorist? BE CAREFUL. You're unwittingly making the case for that term to be used in an ever more casual way...you're making the case for criminals to be categorized as terrorist and the use of increasing force being used against them. That in turn will lead to either the police becoming militarized or for the military to become even more involved in domestic operations. Which will allow for all kinds of civil rights that you take for granted being pushed away in the domestic war on terrorism....TSA and domestic wiretapping might become a weak joke compared to what might be unleashed on the public ... You really don't realize what you're setting the stage for.
UPDATE 1:::
This guys wasn't scared at all. He knew that Dorner was after Officers...not the general public. Also noteworthy is the fact that the guy was on foot and could only carry so much ammo. He had no communication with the outside world. He was in a very isolated location with no danger to the public. They had two concentric rings of deputies around him. They also had several DOZEN SWAT TEAMS on the scene (as a matter of fact the rest of the southland must have gone without coverage) so escape was EXTREMELY unlikely. So tell me again why the rush?
"Burners" = "Tear Gas Canister", plain and simple.
ReplyDeleteWas there a risk of fire, sure, but he brought that risk upon himself.
After waco i'm suprised they defaulted to tear gas so quickly. Tear gas canisters are HOT. I watched a guy pick one up in full chem gear one time during CBRNE training. He thought he'd be a hot shot and throw it. In the brief second or two it took him to pick it up and toss it it burned straight through his gloves and gave him a nasty burn (would have been FAR worse had he not been wearing the gloves). Throwing tear gas canisters or smoke grenades into a wooden house with flammable carpet, furniture, etc is virtually garaunteed to start a fire. I'm not suprised that they ultimately resorted to this tactic, but i am suprised on the timeline.A few hours of shooting is not enough time to verify he doesn't have hostages, IMHO.
ReplyDeletethese guys have more time with "burners" than we do and we know they'll burn.
ReplyDeletethis was a planned execution and for all those that are saying goood. remember. historically the force continuim goes down not up.
one day soon a person will speak his mind to a man that has a badge and it will lead to him bieng shot. car chases will end in executions and you will be able to point here as the beginning.
i'm surprised that no one is calling this for what it is.
How many dead cops do you pile in front of the door before you say OK he has no intention to surrender just wants to stack bodies like sandbags.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand the whole bromance. Dudes a piece of shit, I'm pretty sure LAPD fucked him over. But going apeshit and start killing people not even involved with him getting fired its fucking cowardly. Killing a Marine now police officer that was just on Patrol in an Ambush is Cowardly. Killing the daughter of the guy that fucked you over is as a big ass pussy move as you can do.
Only thing we get out of this is that while police love to talk and look like their SpecOps ninjas but when bullets fly at them they turn into a Goat Fuck.
where is your line in the sand Mairne? when does an American not get the right to a trial and we can now execute on sight? no, i'm not trying to be dramatic, i'm not trying to have a bromance but consider the situation.
Deleteyou have over 200 SWAT members on a hill against one guy. they have time on their side. they have the man contained, they have the man surrounded and they have the guy in a box he can't get out of.
did they attempt negotiations? from what i can see no. did they attempt to wait him out? no.
they decided that the guy should die. if you've read my writings then you know that i predicted that he would have to die bloody to send a message. they sent that message and you seem to be lapping it up.
to me. i take something else away. the Chief declared him a domestic terrorist. it now seems that our govt can kill Americans on US soil now....just like Waco. just like Ruby Ridge.
EVERY AMERICAN HAS THE RIGHT TO HAVE A TRIAL. Dorner knew this, so he could have walked out and turned himself in. Why the hell do we have to risk the lives of law enforcement to forcefully get the scum bag to say I surrender. Your making everything so complicated and dangerous. He didn't want a trial, he wanted a firefight and he got what he wanted, death, end of story.
DeleteHow exactly is burning down the house instead of attempting an arrest unconstitutional? Which article of the US Constitution does that act violate?
ReplyDeletei'm not sure of the exact article but the guy has a right to trial before execution.
Delete5th amm.
DeleteNo person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
6th amm
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Take care.
AWESOME DUDE! Thanks!
DeleteHe was armed they had no other choice, plus one swat guy got shot and killed on the hill by dorner.
Deletewhy did they have no choice. they had total control of the situation. they had multiple Lenco Bearcat vehicles at their disposal.
DeleteWhy would you want to negotiate to arrest this fucker after he killed multiple people AND one of the agents that was engaged in a fire fight at the cabin? I guess we should negotiate the arrest with taliban when we have them cornered too, oh and then put them on trial. Dorner had his chance to give up, should we have waited and let him possibly get away and kill more people? I gaurantee if that was you who got shot up on that hill, that would be enough for you to kill the scum bag.
Deletewhy do you refuse to look past your nose on this issue. yeah the guy was a creep. yeah he was evil yeah and so what?
Deleteso switch it up. what if he had a hostage? would your thinking remain the same? if so then why? if not then explain to me why the police should be allowed the authority to kill without remorse here in the US.
i know you're full of piss and vinegar but remember that everyday on those news channels when they complain about Congress not doing anything what they really mean is not pass laws.
we are at a point now where people can break a law without knowing it and then end up facing a militarized team of law enforcement officials. what happens when its you on the other side of that line? will you be so quick to give away rights?
I'm not gonna play the what if game because he had no hostage. "Were at the point now where people can break a law without knowing it and then end up facing a militarized team of law enforcement officials", what? I think every citizen, including Dorner who was a ex policeman knows that muderer is against the law and is punishable by death. I'm trying to look past my nose on this issue, but all I see is a murderer who did not want surrender. I for one, would not corner myself in a cabin if I wanted to live. I would put my gun down with hands behind my back, and surrender. Its not worth the risk to negotiate for arrest with a fugitive murderer. That's just what my common sense tells me. If you think this is taking our rights away, fine, I'm ok with that, but it doesn't make sense to me.
DeleteAlso, your forgetting they tried to capture him alive with smoke and flash grenades. He still resisted and then shot himself, so much for negotiating.
Deletesmoke and flash grenades were used during the breach. get hands on training with smoke and flash and then come talk to me. they burn. they burn hot and if you're dealing with white phosphorus they burn until they run out of oxygen. it puts out smoke but its against the law of war to use them in an anti-personnel setting. thats some joked about aiming to destroy enemy weapons when using them to mark targets. its nasty stuff.
DeleteSince when was using smoke and flash grenades against armed criminals against the law? How else did u expect them to get him in custody. Police have used rubber bullets and flash grenades on rioters before. Remeber learning about the Kent state shooting? If swat needed to use smoke and flash grenades to neutralize Dorner then its fine by me, its better than shooting him right?
DeleteHe didn't have to stay inside. Did he shoot himself or did the smoke or fire kill him? Sol you're making an argument that we had to risk the lives of more officers doing an entry and trying to arrest him vs trying to force him out. If he had appeared at a window and they had shot him is that also an execution? It's not. An execution is when you kill someone you have in custody.
ReplyDeleteHe made a lot of choices, including multiple murder, and then chose to die. He could have surrendered at any time and he could have left the place when it caught fire. I don't see why society has some burden to get more people killed trying to arrest him. We kill people all the time that choose not to surrender.
We all know LAPD was going to kill Dorner, anybody disagree? The only way Dorner walked out alive from the cabin is if he had called a big TV station and demanded to surrender in the presence of a TV crew filming it for live TV. That would have been a smart move on his part because then he could be a martyr to his race for months to come while a symbol of LAPD corruption.
ReplyDeleteLAPD could never let that happen. That is why all media was moved 5 miles away and all aircraft cleared from the area. LAPD and all the other LEO's were going to have their ritual slaughter of Dorner, basically a "first class trial, followed by a first class hanging", except they skipped the trial part. Dorner deserved execution, he was scum but doing it this way should make all citizens feel less safe around LEO.
How many LEOs would have to die or get wounded trying to capture him alive before it's okay to put a bullet in him from a distance?
ReplyDeleteyou're twisting the argument and you're displaying moral outrage towards me for pointing out something that you should be concerned about.
Deletethe suspect is contained in an area without civilians around.
the suspect has no way out.
the suspect has limited food and no outside communication.
the police have resources out the ass.
instead of a standoff that eventually leads to an assault because they determined that a successful conclusion couldn't be reached they instead started a chain of events which lead to the cabin being burned down.
this was an execution. i am in no way saying that what Dorner did was right but the police are wrong.
we always lump police and military together. if police were operating against an enemy in a foreign country then cool.
but they were acting on US soil against a US citizen with rights. the police mad allegations but never had to present it before a jury. Dorner made a manifesto but some of my writings could be labeled as anti-American. all it depends on is who is doing the judging.
this was a dark day for democracy and instead of outrage our citizens are applauding.
"Change" was my target, not you.
Deleteno Civies?? Bullets travel for miles and he had no problem lighting up the neighborhood.
1. He chose to shoot it out with pursuing LEOs
2. He chose to stay in the cabin after the gas started to flow.
3. He chose to stay in the cabin after the fire started.
4. He chose to (likely) shoot himself and end his life instead of giving up.
Notice the "he chose"?
Did the LEOs have choices? Sure.
They had the choice to sit and wait for a suspect that had a lot of firepower, had military training, and showed a propensity for pursuing armed conflict.
They chose to hasten the end of the conflict in a controlled manner before they lost the advantage of daylight.
Did they get a bit overzealous on the radio? Sure, but their actions were completely justified and legal.
They chose to use an acceptable means of non-lethal submission. Dorner chose not to comply.
Dorner does not deserve my sympathy. He is in no way a "hero" (not saying that you said that, but some are). He has no one to blame but himself.
Dorner was a terrorist, pure and simple.
if Dorner was a terrorist then its a new style of terrorism that i don't recognize. he only targeted police and their families.
Deletein actuality he only targeted officials.
the general public was not in danger and he had a chance to add the driver of the truck and two cleaning women to his list of kills and he did not.
he was a murderer but not a terrorist.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorist
DeleteThe systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.
If his professed desire for the systematic elimination of Officers and their families doesn't make one a terrorist, what exactly does? Ideology? His manifesto shows he followed his own set of beliefs...so that fits. Fanaticism? Shouldn't be any question of whether or not he was a fanatic. While I agree that labeling a US Citizen a domestic terrorist is upsetting, if this guy isn't the physical incarnation of the definition, I don't know what would qualify.
Sol,
Deleteterrorism against LEOs and military was common here in Spain for quite a while. And Ireland. And...
Also, police might have asked for help to the Corps of Engineers, for example. Under direction of law enforcement and without enforcing any law themselves.
Take care
i can see that for some cases but in the US it would raise a ton of eyebrows. we have a severe case of not gonna happen here. every incident that involves the military dealing with the public on US soil has turned bad and caused more problems than its worth. the notable exception being hurricane Katrina.
DeleteSeriously???
ReplyDeleteHe used kidnapping and car/boatjacking on several occasions. What was that about the "general public not in danger"?
He had a beef with the "system".
He chose to show his disdain by specifically murdering the family members of said "system". Are the family members of soldiers serving overseas legitimate military targets? If not then neither are family members of cops the same as going after cops who you claim did you wrong.
Bottom line, he chose to spread his message by the purposeful installation of fear aka terror.
Selective terrorism is still terrorism.
yeah seriously and read what i wrote more carefully next time. i said that he could have added those people to his kill list and he didn't.
Deletethe difference between police and military is HUGE. only those who worship uniforms instead of honoring service conflate the two. one is designed to take the fight to enemies of our nation. the other is to watch over the people of the US and enforce laws.
anyone that believes police and military are the same is fooling themselves....unless you believe that declaring war on the people of this nation by means of a uniform is ok. if that's the case then lets rescind Posse Comitatus and let the Marine Corps rampage through cities.
wake up Spudman. also consider this. how many mass murders are behind bars? those guys were arrested because they targeted civilians. now consider this guy who only went after cops. i said he would die bloody...i just hate being right.
I find it interesting that he was both mil/LE but he only targeted LE.
Deleteyeah i've thought long on that. by rights if HE considered them equal then both mil and LE should have been on the list but he only went after LE....
Deletei can't wait for the psychiatric report on this. deconstructing his motives will be interesting.
He did not "only" go after cops, but targeted their families first.
ReplyDeleteHe died because he chose to stay in the cabin after the gas went in.
He died because he chose to stay in the cabin after the fire started.
He died because he (likely) shot himself in the head.
what was the rush? why the rush? he was in a rural location. i've been up there plenty of times and its all woods and such. its not even Big Bear city it was outside of that in an even more report area of the mountain. the cabin was set off in the woods. they had ample manpower.
Deletewhy the rush to go in?
it because they determined he had to die before hand. that makes law enforcement...which is different from the military...executioners of american citizens.
It was a rush because they were losing daylight and Dorner had a propensity for armed conflict.
ReplyDeleteIt had to be resolved before they lost any advantage they had.
They proceeded with a perfectly legal non-lethal action and it was Dorner himself who chose three times to make it lethal (ignored tear gas, ignored flames, shot himself).
dude. really? seriously?
Deleteburners? a wooden cabin and experience with flash and smoke grenades of all types that they will not describe?
they intended to burn down the cabin and they committed an execution in doing so...just like they did at WACO...
sorry but if your heroes wear badges then you need new heroes.
Sol, during the siege Dorner DID gun down a cop. Regardless of wether Dorner was innocent that warrants what they did. Gunning down a cop during a siege will result in the police razing your position, and rightfully so. This whole things stinks like a craphouse, but the cops were for the most part within their rights.
ReplyDeletethe timeline of events are definitely needed here but i don't know if i would even trust them given the lengths to which the police went to make sure that their activities weren't witnessed by the public.
Deleteconvenient isn't it. they move the public back for the publics protection and then the public must take the word of those involved as to what really happened.
but back to the point. my understanding was that the deputies pursued him and in that gun battle one was killed.
but lets be clear on something. what would you do if the police suddenly opened up on you? like they did with those two ladies whose truck they shot up? this was headed to this ending before it even got started. this was an execution and NO ONE wants to see it.
look at the world as it is men...not as you wish it to be. the world will be much more depressing but you will have a clearer view of things.
Hey Sol I listened to the audio you posted, I'm pissed to. However, I'm not ready to go say that the police murdered Dorner. To say that without evidence and make a wholesale condemnation of LAPD without evidence makes you no better than the LAPD which you rail against. We don't have enough info to condemn either party in the siege. This worries me yes, but it doesn't help to hit the panic button.
Deletei'm not hitting the panic button but more like the wake up button. and let me be clear. i'm not railing against the entire department but you can't tell me that we're seeing the whole sale militarization of our police forces. you can't tell me that they reacted to a threat against them in a way that was far different from how they react when a particular segment of society is being targeted.
Deletethey are acting separate. i'm only willing to treat them that way.
something is wrong here.
i'm just saying we need to take a serious look at it.
Good to know, it's hard to tell sometimes.
DeletePolice are justified in using deadly force if the person they are attempting to apprehend is believed to pose an immediate danger to themselves or persons around them. The governing case law is Tennessee vs. Garner (471 US 1, 1985) which states "deadly force...may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."
DeleteSince Dorner had already killed four people, including one officer at the scene and was shooting at them with an "assault rifle" and had expressed in his manifesto that he would not be taken alive, he more than met the necessary criteria. To say that it would have been OK if one of the cops had shot him but not OK to try to flush him out with easily-ignitable tear gas is a distinction without a difference.
I wonder when/if someone will make a connection between Dorner and PTSD? And if so, how will we view his actions and those of the sheriff and LAPD?
ReplyDeletewe better all pray that it isn't related to PTSD or every vet in America will become immediately suspect.
DeleteI guess smoke grenades are LE enforcement's version of a JDAM.
ReplyDeleteIt tells you how the LE wants to emulate the military when they want to rely on firepower rather than maneuver (or just waiting for the suspect to wear himself out, run out of ammo or off himself.)
Sol, heres some footage from the gunfight. http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=18848
ReplyDeleteI work with a dude that was in the LAPD academy with Dorner, but different classes. The guy I work with told me Dorner was a nut and actually shot himself in the hand during training. The guy never should have been at the academy so in other words LAPD did not screw him over and why do so many assume they did.
ReplyDeleteSol, gotta disagree with ya on this one. We all should be more concerned about a person being jailed for making a video tape that supposedly insulted "the man jammie peoples" than a cop killer going up in a blaze of glory. And I would feel the same way if he had killed only civilians.
the oklahoma city bomber killed 100 plus people and got a chance to surrender why not Dorner? its cause he went after Law Enforcement. if Dorner shot himself during training then i would bet that he would have been dismissed from LAPD for being negligent. i just don't trust it. whas a man jammie peoples????
DeleteThey used Tear Gas first, then Pyrotechnic CS gas after Dorner did not come out. They gave him every chance to come out. If they wanted him dead they would not have started with "cold" Tear Gas.
ReplyDelete---------------- Web Page Here ---------------
The blaze was sparked after authorities fired incendiary tear gas into the cabin, San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon told reporters Wednesday afternoon.
McMahon denied speculation that officers intentionally set the fire, saying officers first used traditional tear gas to flush the man out. When that didn't work, they decided to use CS gas canisters, which are known in law enforcement parlance as incendiary tear gas. These canisters, filled with more potent gas, have a significantly greater chance of starting a fire.
"We did not intentionally burn down that cabin," the sheriff said.
i believe that sheriff as far as i can throw him. the tapes indicate otherwise. i guess we agree to disagree.
Delete