via Flight Global.
"Without a helmet, that means the missile will need a very tight cue from somewhere," one F-22 pilot says. "[That's] something that is not always available in a dynamic, turning environment."and...
To be clear, the AIM-9X is a huge improvement over the AIM-9M version even without a HMCS . "Don't get me wrong, it will still be better than having a 9M, but it won't be anything close to what a fighter with a helmet and an externally carried missile has," the pilot says. "Hence, probably not the savior we've all been waiting on."
"We've been screaming for years that the F-22 needs to have the capability fielded, and fast," the Raptor pilot says. "Once the jets transitions from BVR [beyond visual range] to WVR [within visual range] with only AIM-9M-9s it is hugely vulnerable."That boys and girls basically confirms it.
Royal Air Force and Luftwaffe Typhoon drivers along with French Rafale and Navy F/A-18 goons have all bragged about getting the F-22 in its cross hairs and getting kills on it.
Everyone chalked it up to pilots simply boasting.
The article by Dave puts all that to rest.
In WVR the F-22 is just another fighter.
Nope. All it means is the Raptor community wants the 9X mosh skosh. I don't blame themTthough I have a fondness in my heart for the 9M as it is an evolution of the 9L which I was a crewchief on during FOT&E, and was bags better than the 9E, the 9X is that much better than the 9M. The irony is that we basically bailed on the ASRAAM because of percieved difficulties and delays (and politics), and while I think the 9X is a better weapon, it is years late. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
ReplyDeleteI also suggest watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKEa-R37PeU
DeleteI heard the Raptor "kills" where in gun range when a Raptor pilot screwed up. The wikipedia entry - if accurate - sounds very impressive (241 kills / 2 losses):
ReplyDeleteDuring Exercise Northern Edge in Alaska in June 2006, 12 F-22s of the 94th FS downed 108 adversaries with no losses in simulated combat exercises.[23] In two weeks of exercises, the Raptor-led Blue Force amassed 241 kills against two losses in air-to-air combat; neither Blue Force loss was an F-22. Shortly after was Red Flag 07-1 in February 2007. Fourteen F-22s of the 94th FS supported Blue Force strikes and undertook close air support sorties themselves. Against superior numbers of Red Force Aggressor F-15s and F-16s, 6–8 F-22s maintained air dominance throughout. No sorties were missed because of maintenance or other failures, and only one Raptor was judged lost against the opposing force's defeat.
Remember the Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon were all designed as dog fighters, and all of them shred the 15/16 in that.
ReplyDeleteThe 22/35 were designed as long ranged interceptors and deep penetration bombers.
They still eat the 15/16s at WVR combat, they were never likely to beat the three european designs at that range, but they were never designed to.
armchair amateur strikes again, racist sexist, bigot and thinks fucking civilians have a right to own military weapons (well as long as your happy with kids getting shot by the truck load, keep your sexual desire for your autos but don't claim ignorance)
ReplyDeleteelectro-optical Distributed Aperture System, F-35 system allows missile to be fired and tracked to target post firing, HMCS just an addition to this, you don't need to turn and burn off speed. just designate and fire or fire then designate AIM-9X has that ability.
F-22 is built around AMRAAM num-nutts, BVR supper cruise, distributed electrical aperture system and one hell of an AESA radar. there are rumors abound about F-22's getting electro-optical Distributed Aperture System and this would in fact make it the best all rounder (of which it is not far off being already).
but hay what are we saying, this almighty power sitting in his moms garage knows better than all the brains in the US military and their world class R&D, aerospace dominance and world leading defense industries. lets see how long the 'pro' leaves this comment up for.
Maybe if you didn't engage in pathetic ad hominem attacks, you'd be taken seriously. And it's numb, not num.
DeleteI don't think you can take anybody seriously who seeks to comment on high end aviation systems, yet doesn't know the difference between a semi-automatic rifle and an assault rifle. Nor do I want to hear from somebody who thinks "the people" are idiots.
DeleteThis is his blog,so he can post whatever he wants...dont like it dont come here.I dont have a problem whit is ideas,but i do have a problem with stupid people like you Mark....
Delete"BVR supper cruise" sounds yummy! It's "numb nuts" not num-nutts. And hay is for horses you stupid fuck.
DeleteI always wonder what sort of mental illness one must have to think someone is an idiot, yet read every word they write.
ReplyDeleteThe same one that afflicts those who complain YouTube videos are too long.......
DeleteLast I heard the Typhoon doesn't kill its pilots.
ReplyDeleteI understand one Eurofighter went down and killed it's pilot while the B/N ejected safely. Perhaps seven crashes in all for this bird, one when the nose wheel folded up.
DeleteI suggest that you all watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKEa-R37PeU
ReplyDeleteAlso, the Typhoon's radar is a mechanical joke that is 20 years out of date, and the French are just now getting an AESA radar onto the Rafales. Plus, with the French AF only buying 180, and the Indians buying 132, there aren't that many Rafales. Also, most Europeans nations are getting ready to gut the airforces, so I don't think the Raptor has ANYTHING to worry about.
you continue to mix issues here. we're talking WVR, not BVR combat. at eyeball distance the things that make the F-22 a world beater kinda start to work against it.
ReplyDeleteadditionally i'm going off Dave's report and he's quoting F-22 drivers. they're the ones stating that in WVR they're vulnerable to a pilot that has helmet mounted cuing and externally mounted missiles.
the pilots that drive the plane are saying that. not me.
They also say they need to be at a five-to-one disadvantage just to make it interesting. Guess, you forgot that bit.
DeleteAgainst a 15/16, the Raptor wins WVR.
DeleteNot against a Typhoon...
"Against a 15/16, the Raptor wins WVR.
DeleteNot against a Typhoon..."
Source? Yeah, I didn't think so.
Erm, press page up a few times.....
DeleteJesus, the sky isn't falling and that article "confirms" nothing of the sort.
ReplyDeleteFrom a USAF general on how an F-15 can kill an F-22 in WVR combat (with the F-22 beginning defensive)"
ReplyDelete"You have to have AIM-9X and JHMCS [joint helmet mounted cueing system] to get an off-boresight IR [infrared] capability. And the F-22 guy has to put up his power a nanosecond too early and not use his countermeasures and you may get a fleeting, one nanosecond AIM-9X shot, and that's about it."
In short, HOBS and HMDs are a great equalizer in WVR combat. This has been well known for years and the reason why many of the US 4th gen fighters have both.
In fact, JHMCS and AIM-9X enabled the Swiss *Legacy* Hornets to outperform the Typhoon and the Rafale in WVR simulated combat during the Swiss fighter evaluations.
Arguably just as important is equipping the F-22 with a HMD is retrofitting the IRST from the F-35 or updating the MAWS.
""You have to have AIM-9X and JHMCS [joint helmet mounted cueing system] to get an off-boresight IR [infrared] capability. And the F-22 guy has to put up his power a nanosecond too early and not use his countermeasures and you may get a fleeting, one nanosecond AIM-9X shot, and that's about it."
DeleteIn short, HOBS and HMDs are a great equalizer in WVR combat."
That's quite a fucking leap (to put it mildly). How does an infintismal chance equate to "equal"?
Forgive my poor choice of words; I meant that HOBS + HMD greatly improves the WVR efficacy of 4th gen aircraft to the point that they can pose a credible threat (in WVR) to 5th gen aircraft.
DeleteThe remarks of the F-15 driver at Red Flag 2008 somewhat corroborate my point; a good jammer + low RCS + HOBS + HMD can enable a 4th gen to get to the merge with a 5th gen.
Also, there's the well known Growler AMRAAM "kill" of a Raptor that was attributed to a combination of jamming and RWR geolocation.
I'm not saying such incidents would be common just that there are a lot of 4th gen aircraft out there and the upgrades to them are readily available and in many cases well underway.
What a shame there won't be an F-22C that could come off the production line with DAS, IRST, and AIM-9X options.
ReplyDeleteIf we could guarantee that all future engagements will be at BVR distances, the F-22 has nothing to fear.
I seem to remember a similar assumption about Air-to-Air engagements being missile only back when then F-4 was fielded in Vietnam.
Kinda funny how people forget the enemy has a vote as to how they choose to fight, ain't it?
The latest generation of Western WVR missiles employ Focal Plane Array seekers with target recognition capability and high resistance to infrared countermeasures. AIM-9X missile uses an Indium Antimonide bandgap detector array. Russian industry is working on such an FPA seeker, what is unclear is whether it will employ bandgap detector or superior two colour QWIP technology.
ReplyDeleteIR flares are beyond useless against modern IR missiles that are less than 20y old. AIM-9X seeker sees actual airplane shape not just a ball of heat so flares hardy distract. More important this technology is being applied to russian BVR missiles.
Russians always had both radar and IR BVR missles and its standard practice to launch both in salvo to increase kill probability.
IR missile might become a new BVR threat to F22 as IR seekers are almost impossible to defeat without DIRCM that have never been fitted to a fighter, compared to radar guided missiles that have hit probability of only cca 46% against old non stealth planes with no jammers and future trends show that % is likely to decrease in the future.
Helmet mounted cueing systems have been standard in russian planes for decades and F22 is likely to face a SU27 family opponent sooner or later.
As more and more stearth planes are built WVR combat will become more probable than BVR as BVR missles are loosing the already poor edge to stealth and jammers
So as in Vietnam a twenty year old fighter like the MiG 17 can roll into gun range due to some liberal assholes RoE which will make it mandatory that the F-4 get into eyeball range to confirm it's an enemy before zooming out to missile range and engage. IF The MiG pilot let's the F-4 leave without shooting it up.
ReplyDeleteMost advanced fighter in the world brought down by idiots who think war is a soccer game and must be fought "FAIR" to ensure the F-22 doesn't have an unfair advantage over our poor mistreated enemy.
The same as schools where everybody gets a trophy, SEALs kill Bin Laden and the Muslim's get to kill the SEAL team, "Just to be fair!"
Hundreds of US planes in the air and an occasional NVAF plane here and there made WVR RoE only way to avoid blue on blue
DeleteTyphoon could even ram F-22, if it would live long enough to close to WVR, why it even need missiles to fight F-22?
ReplyDeleteTheir obsolete, light but with TWO engines, short range, no supercruise with missiles attached, no internal weapon bays, ... Typhoon, would only have benefits if it drop all missiles to reduce air drag and close to F-22 faster, and dump gun ammo to reduce weight and outmaneuver F-22 to get into ramming position!
That might be a profitable strategy given the number of Typhoons (over) produced...
Delete