Thanks for the link Joe!
I haven't been following this blog like I should but check this out....as usual a tidbit. Go here to read it all.
There are a couple of rules of thumb that one should understand if they're going to try and denigrate their competition. One, make sure you're not living in a glass house when you throw the stones. And two, make sure you know what you're talking about.Pretty freaking awesome in my opinion.
In both cases, a Boeing executive ignored those rules of thumb to take a few shots at his competitor's airplane, namely the F-35.
Chris Chadwick, president of Boeing Military Aircraft division, met with reporters recently at the Boeing headquarters.
"The F-35 continues to delay and delay", he told them.
Right. Old news. As has been pointed out here, the testing that is now going on is ahead of schedule and has been for quite some time. That was a valid point a year or so ago. Now it just sounds like uniformed sour grapes.
Then there was this:
"Yes, the F-35 has all-aspect stealth, but that is used in a relatively small part of the combat envelope."
Really, sir? This is a Joint STRIKE fighter, that's understood right? Which means a large portion of its future missions will be penetrating hostile enemy airspace and engaging targets deep in enemy territory. That won't be a "relatively small part" of its "combat envelope", it will, in fact, be a rather large part of it. Especially if that enemy has sophisticated air defenses. If so, stealth becomes a very important tool that pushes up the chances of mission success in contested airspace much higher than if one is having to try it in an F/A 18.
We still need the F-35.
Consider this. The Chinese have J-20 plus one other stealth fighter and possibly a third under development. The Russians and Indians are developing another.
And all we have are legacy 4th gen fighters.
No doubt about it...WE NEED THE F-35.
The problem for the Marine Corps is we need new armor too.
General Mattis really should stick around and become the next Commandant. We need real leadership in the big chair...especially now....especially with this budget mess the Marine Corps finds itself in!
Radars evolve quicker than stealth fighter.
ReplyDeleteWith the actual shedule of F35, Russia will have S500 Stealth killer in army ( fear for USA) and european too...
It's not even com bat proven, because USAF refuse to make training with foreign country in BVR.
But it's sure that Stealth paint get old quickly and need to be repair ofen.
With china blockade on rare material ( perhaps to make strategic reserve for their own stealth fighter), could you be sure to keep your furtivity in a real war ( not versus third world country) ?
Anfrench opinion ( explain bad english ...)
the pait isn't made with materials from China, at all.
DeletePlus, that fictional S-500 could blow apart a Rafale.
Shame on me too many faults..
ReplyDeleteIf you want to support the F-35 that's fine but Barry Graf is a Lock-Mart shill and I mean that literally (see article here and scroll down to the "Astro-Turf" section http://www.offiziere.ch/?p=11420 ).
ReplyDeleteIt is only true that the F-35 testing is on schedule when measured against the new-new-new schedule that has been pushed back multiple times; Barry is saying "now that we adjusted the schedule to fit the actual events the testing is no longer running late." Even this is only true when looking at very narrow criteria like 'test points'. DOTE just put out a memo describing how the availability of the plane for training is much lower than LockMart promised for this stage of testing and that major problems with flight envelope restrictions, the fact that the super-duper helmet doesn't work and systems mean the training utility of the flying aircraft is much less than it should be. Finally, nothing is going to change the fact that the F-35 is years late and the software is still getting later.
Also if we had the F-35 in service for the last ten years it would not have needed it's stealth capabilities once and that's in almost continuous combat, so the "hey it's a strike fighter" argument is pretty fatuous too.
Yes you can make good arguments for the importance of stealth in possible future conflicts but you can also look at actual combat feedback from Libya about the importance of low end strike fighters to take over 'bomb truck' operations at much lower cost than top of the line fighters after air supremacy has been established and the recent Israeli use of ECM to completely avoid a very heavy Syrian SAM envelope. It's an argument that takes more than saying "in those specific situations where stealth is important, and where we arbitrarily rule out using stand off weapons or the F-22 and B-2, stealthy F-35s are important"
the argument is about utility in current conflicts. the argument is really about our current fighters against a mythical chinese airforce after 2020.
Deletewill the F-15, F-16, F-18 really stand up to the J-20 and PAK-FA? will the Rafale and the Typhoon?
if you're honest then you're saying no they won't. if you're honest then you're also saying that we need the F-35.
Sure. The USAF has done a masterful job of choking off F-35 alternatives so we're going to buy some but I would argue we need them for BVR air to air and SEAD, not anything else. The question is not whether or not to buy them but rather how many should we buy and for who, especially since we need to be considering the following:
DeleteRef future conflicts:
-- all of our experience since '45 is that we will not go up against a peer air force. Anybody who is a peer is nuclear and nobody wants to go there.
-- all of our GWOT experience shows that we are much more likely to go to war in istan than anywhere else. The F-35 is much too expensive to buy and operate for the missions in these wars.
-- yes war with china, Russia or even India is conceivable and must be planned for, but we need to be planning and preparing for other contingencies too
Ref that 'mythical' air force
-- it is interesting that the mythical Chinese always have J-20s and high performance SAMs but never have a network of ground based IRST stations shielding their key targets; never have L band based AWACS that are much better at detecting stealth aircraft than the fighter, or fire control, x band radars the F-35 is optimized against; never develop a long range missile capability that can take out US tankers and support aircraft, etc. etc.
-- in fact the mythical Chinese air force never takes any steps at all to try and oppose stealth asymmetrically which is awfully convenient for people planning on having F-35s fly over Chinese soil
Ref our current fighters
-- presumably if we are fighting China every F-22 and B-2 in the inventory is in the fight, so the question is how many additional stealth planes do we need, not whether or not we need stealth planes
-- the assumptions behind the F-22 and F-35 always include the assumption that AESA radars will detect the J-20 and Pak-FA, otherwise the loss ratios are going to go down towards 1-1 in shorter range combat and, thanks to the F-35's massive cost over-runs and high operating costs, that is simply unsustainable. So if gen 4.5 aircraft can mount AESA, which they are already doing, they will hardly be helpless, though certainly their advantage will be much less than that of the F-35, hence my comment that we still need F-35s for BVR work
-- one of the open questions is 'what is the right balance between stealth and stand off weapons', that question should be re-examined. An F-15 that can launch outside of a SAM envelope is no more vulnerable than an F-35 doing the same and that's without even talking about TLAM follow ons
So yes we need F-35s but we also need to be realistic about how badly the program is going, the fact that the planned buy of F-35s was never going to happen due to costs even before the sequester and the need to re-assess our options.
I have always been an ardent suporter of the F-35,but these days it just looks like it has to much issues to be a viable platform...LM has really made a mess of the program.
ReplyDeleteAs for the PAK-FA ,most analysts say that the aircraft was designed to be able to deny the BVR weapons of the F-22 and F-35 and enter a dogfight,where it will use its superior agility and endurance to beat them...whit the lattest performace issues the F-35 will be an easy kill...even an indian MIG-21 Bison whit HMS and the AA-11(R-73)missile will be better performing than the JSF...it just looks like world fall on me when i read the news...
don't fall for the latest and greatest from the anti-F35 crowd. it will be a capable dogfighter and a mig-21 wouldn't even make it into the air much less combat.
Deletethe issues are as they always have been. a very relaxed development schedule. pushing tech probably to the breaking point and wanting it for the price of a P-51.
the plane will work, the price will be worked out and this development pain will all be a bad memory soon.
the problem for the Marine Corps is that we need armor too. and right away.
I really hope that you are right.And i hope that the JSF will win the Korean and canadian competition and shut up all the critics.I just hope that it will be a very capable platform an perform as advertised.
ReplyDeletePS-I also hope the USMC gets serious whit their armor fast.At least whit the MPC...whats the deal? Its suposed to be an off the shelf option...
And just join the US Army in upgrading their Abrams.
The force of your airforce is the number !
ReplyDeleteDuring WW2 nazi had new gen aircraft, but in too small number and they lost every air battle...
Now you have thousand of aircraft, tomorrow you will have 300 F22 and ONLY ONE THOUNSAND F35 ? That can carry 2 time less bombs if stealth or same as actual aircraft but not stealth...
In actual technology, aircraft are beaten by missile and radar technology advance and soon by drones...
Some people in europe believed that F35 program was designed to destroy european aircraft constructor and dump our army credits... Don't know if it's true but it dump yours...
S 500 isn't fictionnal, according to wiki and novosti agency, it will be released during 2014 and with effective range of 500km ( more than your anti radar missile...) And if Sa 10 and SA 12 shot down F117 during Yougoslavia wars, what did you expect from new SAM ? Why all the world feared already that S 300 will be sell to Iran ?
Locked Martin was responsible for the F 104... the pilot killer aircraft, which, like F35 is becomming, was producted and sold before being finished and was retired of service before it was finised.
And to finish, the only advantage of "5 gen" aircraft is the stealth design... all your actual aircraft could become 4.5 gen by upgrade...
drones are a overblown hype. the technological advantage between stealth and 4.5 gen is greater than the pitiful number of jets that the Nazi were able to field.
Deleteadditionally the F-35 is having weapons tailored for it. ever heard of the Cuda missile? last, a true war load for the F-35 is its true warload. for nonstealth airplanes you can fill every pylons with bombs or missiles but all you can do is patrol the airfield you launched from.
the F-35 wasn't designed to kill the European aerospace industry. the brits and other european nations are onboard. what it was designed to do is to give the US and its allies a leg up on the threat. the real question is whether the F-35 will beat the J-20 and friends. we know the Typhoon, Raafale and teen fighters won't.
so if not the F-35 then what?
Yes the F-35 is having weapons tailored for it and yes that will increase its effectiveness but the costs of all those new weapons systems, and of all the SLEPs being done because the program complete failed in its mission to "fill the fighter gap", are costs that should be directly charged to the F-35 program and included in its unit costs. Bottom line is it's money that wouldn't have been spent if we weren't buying the F-35.
DeleteAEGIS destroyer ?
ReplyDeleteno seriously. i mean everyone is looking for answers to the issue but is it the meteor missile? i don't think so. its a beyond visual range asset and it has to lock onto the target. i don't know what the French are working on but I'm sure they're working on something. is it partial stealth like the PAK-FA? dodge missiles until you can get close? i don't think that'll work. you're assuming that the F-22 and F-35 will play that game. unless the pilots of those planes are idiots they wont'.
Deleteso how do you kill an F-35? i would bet that it would take something radical that we haven't seen. something unusual. i'm talking like the B-1R missile truck launching saturation missile attacks at long range and using a new type of aerial phased array mounted on a cargo plane to burn through ...but it will be different. but of course electronic attack...and i mean real attack is coming soon as well as airborne lasers on fighters so the game will change soon.
It doesn't take anything radical.
Delete-- You're assuming that AESA on F-22/F-35 detects stealth aircraft (Pak-FA, J-20) so AESA on a peer opponent fighter (gen 4.5 or gen 5) will detect F-22/F-35, so they will be detected
-- For radar guided stuff like the meteor you use a two way data link with the missile (which the Gripen and Typhoon, but not Rafale, IIRC)to get the missile close using data from an AESA or IRST
-- The Russians already have the capability to launch BVR IR guided missiles, which the F-35 has no more stealth against than an F-16, based off of IRST data without any radar lock at all.
Pardon the pun, but it's not rocket science.
your arrogance is awe inspiring. i'm not assuming that AESA will detect PAK FA or any other stealth airplane until its in basically knife fighting range. additionally for radar guided missiles to work you have to light yourself up. the stealth planes won't have to do that working with AWACS and using data links....next using that same tech they can launch in teams with one team illuminating another firing and turning or whatever the fly guys use. last bvr ir still needs to have at least an area to launch in.....its a big sky and if its a meeting engagement then the F-35's will see first, launch first and exit the fight before the russian missiles come into play.
Deletenew equipment, new tactics, a new plane. all added together its a new fight.
your talk aboout adding the cost of the delays to the F-35 really are silly and evade the real issue. first if the F-35 wasn't being developed the SLEPs would have to be done anyway, next if the F-35 was canceled we'd have to build another one anyway because the current gen just won't do against emerging threat weapons and last you know all this, you just want to be argumentative and can't come up with better arguments except the old tried and true.
Ref AESA: you're right, I did not correctly understand your position. Sorry about that. It does bring up the issue of how you're going to keep J-20s from taking out all of your AWACS and Tankers though if F-22s and F-35s can't see J-20s or Pak-FAs.
DeleteRef the F-35 having advantages in BVR: I basically agreed with you earlier in this thread when I said I thought the US should buy F-35s for BVR. My point was simply that there are a number of ways F-35s can be killed right now with existing technology, or simple extensions of existing technology. Yes good tactics will greatly improve the F-35s exchange rate; I'm not disputing that either.
Finally, I never said that we wouldn't have to do SLEPs if we cancelled the F-35. I said we wouldn't have had to do SLEPs if the F-35 was on time and that is true. If you back to the original JSF sales pitch, they promised that by 2012 over 200 combat ready F-35s would be coming off the line every year with several hundred F-35s already built during the ramp. It's hard to see how we'd be SLEPing everything in sight if they had done what they said they would do.
It's like at the beginning of vietnam war when US aircraft came with missile but without guns... US build tactics on industrial estimation.
ReplyDeleteIt's all about estimation of Locked Martin expert, which not always independant : so today you build your tactic on nothing combat proven. B1-R wasn't cancelled ?
F 35 plans and software were pirated by china hackers... You will have luck if they haven't yet some troyans on your new aircraft...
( for intel : F 35 is the most enormous aircraft software existing today : I read sometimes the internal computer is lagging...).
I hope your bird is better than other and win all wars... but i have no faith about..
i have more faith in Lockheed engineers and air force, Navy and Marine tacticians than i do in military and civilian leadership.
Deletewe might not win all wars but we will kick ass in all battles.
i'm always surprised at the thought that everyone thinks the Chinese have the secrets to the kingdom when it comes to the F-35. the point is that Chinese espionage attempts have been noted and publicized. that means that those attempts have probably been foiled in some way. a nation that can put together the SUXTEXT virus and destroy iranian computers is certainly able to put bugs in Chinese hackers that are after our gear. additionally a private company was able to track back to the very building where the chinese army has its hackers setup.
if that's the case then surely the NSA has them penetrated up the wazoo.
I think one of the key issues here that everyone seems to be forgetting is the PILOT.
ReplyDeleteYes, the F-35 has stealth, yes so do a few other countries who ripped us off.
Yes, the F-35 is expensive. If you want the best, you have to pay for it.
But fabsther brought up Vietnam and I think that's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. In a dogfight the F-4s were terrible. They really were. They had very few advantages over any of the MiGs being flown by the Vietnamese and Russians. But if you look at the statistics we destroyed them in dogfights. And it sure as hell wasn't because of our missiles.
The United States for many decades now has had the best trained military in the world. I have the utmost faith that the F-35 will be incredibly deadly, not because of stealth or new fangled missiles. But because when you add those to the best pilots in the world, our Air Force is unstoppable.