Once again we have a major arms expo occurring with very little coverage by the big names in the defense media. IDEF 2013 is happening now and FNSS & OTOKAR are the stars of the armored portion of the show. All photos are via Military Tech Magazine.
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| I didn't notice it before but FNSS has cleaned up and modernized their one man turret. That's a 25mm cannon with a 7.62 coax...pretty impressive and alot of forces still like the commander to be heads up in the turret for situational awareness. It might make its way to the MPC or AAV upgrade or even the ACV...especially if they can cram a 30mm bushmaster in there. |
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| I'm still a little fuzzy on what this unmanned turret is called. I think the vehicle is the Pence and the turret the CLAW...I need to get this figured out.... |
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| This is an unusual vehicle design. Commander and driver are seated side by side in front with the engine in back. It reminds me of the old M-114 I read about that was suppose to perform the same function...a recon vehicle. I find it interesting that so many of the world's forces still insist on armored recon instead of depending on the attached UAVs to perform the mission. The US Army is about to have the world's biggest UAV force and yet still believe in the Armored Cav mission... |
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| I have no idea what this turret system is called on this Arma 6x6. It looks manned but I can't quite make it out. |
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| So they put missiles on the Mizrak turret. BIG MISTAKE! IFVs that have the capability to kill tanks will always seek to engage tanks. That puts the vehicle and the infantry in unnecessary danger. That's a flawed concept that even the Russians are moving away from. |
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| Anyone have any idea what the ALTAY weighs? For some reason it looks light to me...almost in the same class as the AMX-40. If it is then I'm becoming alot more interested... |
When is General Dynamics going to release their secret vehicle for MPC? These apcs don't seem all that high tech, but the Turks are catching up fast.
ReplyDeletei've been wondering about that. it seems that many of the emerging countries are getting wise when it comes to military procurement now. take Brazil for example. they're teaming with IVECO to get work done on their new IFV inside Brazil. IVECO actually developed it but all the bits and pieces will be assembled in Brazil. they might import the parts but they'll be built there so Brazil gets the knowledge of how its done. same will apply to the FX project.
DeleteTurkey is doing the same thing. take the S-70I for example. the only reason why its not going full rate production is because Turkey is negotiating hard on work share. they got a piece of the F-35 project and they're going to be developing a lot more domestic work based off experience gained from joint projects. its pretty smart and will push their industry ahead faster than otherwise.
Sources vary on the Altay: some say 55 tonnes, some say 65 tonnes. I'm inclined to believe the 65 tonnes number, since the hull is longer than the Korean K2 hull it was developed from and the K2 was already at 55 tonnes. Supposedly lots of Korean influence on the hull with an all new Turkish turret.
ReplyDelete"I find it interesting that so many of the world's forces still insist on armored recon instead of depending on the attached UAVs to perform the mission. The US Army is about to have the world's biggest UAV force and yet still believe in the Armored Cav mission.."
ReplyDeletebecause things look different at ground level.
Think back to Kosovo in 1999. The USAF was convinced they'd dropped the hammer on the Yugo army based on the number of reported vehicle kills. They kept believing it until the BDA after KFOR went in and were a bit surprised to find that massive amounts of decoys blown up instead of armored vehicles and trucks.
I tend to agree that fighting for information, part of the arm cav mission, has not remotely gone away. A UAV is merely an aircraft and aerial recon has it's limitations. Deception, decoys, weather, smoke, terrain, enemy anti aircraft, etc., all impact the effectiveness of aerial recon.
ReplyDeletethe same obstacles (maybe different) apply to ground recon. want to know how most WWII commanders knew when there ground recon was successful? when they didn't hear back from them! the idea of fighting for information is at best moonbat stupid and worst its down right lunacy! to send an IFV armed with a few anti-tank missiles and a medium caliber cannon out to locate heavy armored forces is to beg to lose those assets.
DeleteRespectfully, and especially in terms of WWII, I disagree. If you look at the TO&E of a German WWII recon batt and compare that to a US unit you'll note the German unit is organized to fight as a combined arms unit for information while the US unit was far more lightly equipped and didn't have the doctrine nor training to effectively fight for info. The Army did learn some lessons here.
DeleteThe arm cav reg was probably the most lethal unit for it's size we've seen in the world. It not only was prepared to fight hard for information but could itself be used as a very powerful maneuver unit, see 73 Easting.
If you don't have a recon unit leading the way then you're simply going to use a maneuver element not properly trained for the task. Arm cav wasn't about sending in a few IFV's. The ACR's squadrons had more M1's than M3 CFV's and had an M109 battery in direct support and were supported by scout and attack helo's from regiment. Every troop was a combined arms team of tanks, CFV's, and mortars supported by the squadron's tank company and artillery battery.
What the US Army did in fact do was do away with the ACR and add a very light recon "batt" to every brigade. Moreover, after Gulf War I the Army in it's wisdom began removing the CFV and replacing it with armored Humvee's because it didn't like it's recon units being equipped to fight and get in trouble. That's exactly the US Army WWII mistake the ACR corrected. Recon can't always be about sneaking around with a minimal footprint.
You can find lots of photos taken from IDEF 2013 EXPO at this site. http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/244965-idef-2013-turkey-updates-discussions-5.html
ReplyDeleteALTAY supposed to be 60+ tonnes. It's boron-carbide based composite armor is still being developed by Roketsan, so we don't know an exact number.
On the second photo. Vehicle name is "Pars",Turret name is "Pençe". Pençe means Claw in Turkish.
ReplyDeleteRegarding 4th photo. Turrets name is Bozok 12.7mm manned.
ReplyDeleteOtokor revailed several turrets in EXPO:
- BAŞOK 7.62 MM (Showing with URAL vehicle.)
- BOZOK 12.7 MM (Showing with ARMA 6x6)
- BOZOK 25 MM (Showing with ARMA 6x6)
- ÜÇOK 12.7 mm/7.62 mm/40 mm AGL (Showing with COBRA II)
- KESKİN UKKS 12.7 mm/7.62 mm/40 mm AGL (Showing with COBRA)