Many thanks for the link to the article Chris!
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via the Wall Street Journal.
On Jan. 4 of last year, a local narcotics strike force conducted a raid on the Ogden, Utah, home of Matthew David Stewart at 8:40 p.m. The 12 officers were acting on a tip from Mr. Stewart's former girlfriend, who said that he was growing marijuana in his basement. Mr. Stewart awoke, naked, to the sound of a battering ram taking down his door. Thinking that he was being invaded by criminals, as he later claimed, he grabbed his 9-millimeter Beretta pistol.The police say that they knocked and identified themselves, though Mr. Stewart and his neighbors said they heard no such announcement. Mr. Stewart fired 31 rounds, the police more than 250. Six of the officers were wounded, and Officer Jared Francom was killed. Mr. Stewart himself was shot twice before he was arrested. He was charged with several crimes, including the murder of Officer Francom.Read the entire article, its a must do!
The police found 16 small marijuana plants in Mr. Stewart's basement. There was no evidence that Mr. Stewart, a U.S. military veteran with no prior criminal record, was selling marijuana. Mr. Stewart's father said that his son suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and may have smoked the marijuana to self-medicate.
Early this year, the Ogden city council heard complaints from dozens of citizens about the way drug warrants are served in the city. As for Mr. Stewart, his trial was scheduled for next April, and prosecutors were seeking the death penalty. But after losing a hearing last May on the legality of the search warrant, Mr. Stewart hanged himself in his jail cell.
Side note: I always said that if a SWAT team ran up against a highly motivated former military guy that they'd be in trouble. This incident and the Dorn case prove my point. Matthews shot 31 times and got at least 6 hits, one of them fatal vs. 250 rounds in return fire while he was hit twice. Don't forget that Matthews was naked, was asleep and might have burned through all his ready ammo. The cops? They struck in the middle of the night, wore body armor, had fully automatic weapons, optics and outnumbered him. The DOJ and Federal Officials have justification to fear Vets (yeah right I'm just being controversial, I don't mean this one bit...but I want to take you to a hypothetical). If they ever united (even a small group of them) and decided to go on a crime spree it would be lights out. Imagine 13 Afghanistan vets form a squad to rob banks or drug dealers? What if they had body armor, combat load outs of ammo and AR-15s/AK-47s??? Say they trained and worked out and practiced tactics for a year before they pulled their first job? Cops, Banks, and Drug Dealers wouldn't stand a chance.
Michael Mann's movie "Heat" showed something like that. They weren't military but they had some of the tactics down pretty good. Not surprising considering the film's adviser was Andy McNab of Bravo Two Zero fame.
ReplyDeleteThe bozos that did the North Hollywood shootout had all the equipment but just stood around shooting up the place.
well the scary thing is I can't tell you how many times I've heard Marines playing grab ass and talking about getting together later to rob drug dealers....the conversations were always about drug dealers for some reason, maybe a Robin Hood thing, but the point is one day its gonnna happen. you're gonna have a REAL TIGHT squad get together and do what is often talked about.
Deleteassuming they do it right i would bet that it would take a Boston Bomber type force to bring them down and if they're in the defense with the right gear the only thing that could beat them would be drone strike (and even that assumes thermobarics are used and they aren't dug in text book style with heavy structural reinforcements and maybe even some type of oxygen devices).
Or they could pull a 'Los Zetas' and become the drug dealers. Use their training to clean out an area of the competition and then dare the cops to try and take it back.
DeleteThe original Los Zetas were from the Mexican version of the Special Forces/Force Recon and they still recruit from them I guess.
you do know that you just gave the DEA and FBI the latest reason why they need a massive upgrade in budget to fight the newest threat...Vets becoming drug dealers or teaming with the Zetas!
Deletewow. the crazy thing is you know some egghead is actually wargaming the possibility when the actuality is that most Vets (i'd say that 99.9%) are too patriotic and law abiding to even consider the idea. but they're either fearful or payed to look at all possibilities.
Considering number of gangbangers that served and serve you might allready find them on the streets back with their gangs.
Delete''In 2008, FBI gang investigator Jennifer Simon stated that 1-2% of the U.S. military belongs to gangs, which is 50-100 times the rate in the general population.[1] According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's 2011 National Gang Threat Assessment, the NGIC has identified members of more than 53 gangs who have served in the United States military, including Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, MS-13, Sureños, the Aryan Brotherhood, Barrio Azteca, Bandidos, Hells Angels, and Gangster Disciples.[2]
U.S. gangs have sometimes encouraged their members to join the military in order to learn urban warfare techniques, which they could then teach other gang members when they returned from service.[citation needed] A January 2007 article in the Chicago Sun-Times reported that gang members in the military are also involved in the theft and sale of military weapons, ammunition, and equipment, including body armor''.
that report is often cited but honestly i think what you're actually seeing is people that join the military attempting to make a change in their lives and for whatever reason they revert back once they get past boot camp because they're in a lax unit. remember too that for many of these people membership in these games is a family tradition. being a member and an active member are two different things.
Deletei know i sound like an apologist but these government reports are designed to alarm also remember that the Marine Corps was called an extremist organization by an Army official so 100 percent support of the military isn't a govt policy.
Stop putting ideas in those DOJ jerks' heads incase they didn't already have them! Oh well its out there already anyway....I remember that bullshitting game, except I think ours was to kidnap some celebrity....
ReplyDeleteyeah the last time i heard it, it was to go down and attack a Mexican drug lord...
DeleteOoh thats a good one, then you get all into how to up armor and arm your dump truck into an APC, how to avoid/destroy the same, crossing the border. All sorts of interesting topics in that discussion!
Deletehell they already have shops that will up armor but the beauty of it all is that if you have basic welding skills and access to plate armor (and a truck that can handle the load) then its a relatively simple matter to do it yourself. hillbilly armor lives!
Delete"If they ever united (even a small group of them) and decided to go on a crime spree it would be lights out. Imagine 13 Afghanistan vets form a squad to rob banks or drug dealers? What if they had body armor, combat load outs of ammo and AR-15s/AK-47s??? Say they trained and worked out and practiced tactics for a year before they pulled their first job? Cops, Banks, and Drug Dealers wouldn't stand a chance."
ReplyDeleteImagine that Stewart was part of that 13, and the remaining 12 hit the Police HQ....
A few dozen could hand LAPD their arses in an afternoon.
Anyway
I just cant believe how shit SWAT teams are.
Not that police force puts them on the payroll when they are so incompetent, but that police officers are willing to raid a house when they are useless. Surely just for their own chances of survival they would spend time on the range learning how to shoot?
its because SWAT is more holiwood than it is real law enforcement now. when SWAT (from what I've read) first started out they had a set number of training hours but the other time they would be out on patrol like everyone else (which is probably why we see raids going up...they have to justify being full time). when you have a compressed training schedule you focus on the basics. shooting, moving and communicating. now they're trying to do complex entries that are more like what you'd see SEALs attempting. they're just not into the basic shit anymore.
Deletehave you seen the training vids? every trainer is trying to come up with something goofier and goofier in order to be cutting edge when the people they're training need to do the basic shit of getting in shape, getting practice on basic marksmanship and learning to be fully aware of their surroundings.
Cripes, look at how Boston area LE was crazy for TWO amateur terrorists. ANd they couldn't find the remaining one without stretching "exigent circumstances" to the breaking point and violating citizens rights by forcing them into the night as LE methodically searched their homes.
DeleteLooking at how batshit LAPD went over Dorner, I have very little faith in LE. They train for hostage situations, some weirdo who barricades himself in his house, school shooting, drug raids. The LE MO is establish a perimeter to contain the trouble, then isolate and defuse situation OR to pick a place at a time and place of their convenience in the case of a raid. They just don't have the training or organization to react or anticipate a concerted campaign of violence.
The tempo that Dorner and private citizens "SWAT-ing" kept Los Angeles LE on such a crazy pace, it would have worn down their teams and capabilities trying to maintain that OPTEMPO. And I think Dorner was trying to do that because it made LE look like idiots AND increase opportunities for police to alienate the public with overly violent raids or just plain shoot up innocent civilians.
We've talked about this before, but US Law Enforcement would be completely hosed if there was a cell of terrorists who were intent on staging Mumbai attack in the US. And if they had the support/training/funding/logistics of an enemy government, they could slip "engineering students" in with student visas the US, working in proximity of sensitive research universities and city centers.
It is why we as a nation need to look at a militia-based LE response as opposed to the model we currently have.
I know many counties in Texas use regular deputies and train them as a SWAT, then call on them when a warrant requires them. I would wager that the training these guys receive is nowhere near what a soldier receives. I would not, however, expect the poor shooting performance that happened in the Stewart case. I would imagine that once that first shot was fired, only one guy in that room was used to what that felt like.
DeleteRemember SWAT image is of some kind of special force in reality they are jus about as special as PD bowling team .
ReplyDeleteRemember boston bomber someoned guped a gun a let of a shot suddenly everyone started firing folloved by change off diapers then they dorwe an armored car to check for the guy.
ya...i had to chuckle when the writer referred to them as being equal to a Special Forces unit.
Delete