via The Star Phoenix.
Read the whole thing here.If a competition is to be announced before the 2015 election, an opportune moment would be early in 2014 - in time for the government to take credit for doing "the right thing" by taxpayers, but not so proximal to the vote as to make it appear opportunistic, or risk its once again becoming an election issue. The idea, in other words, is to take the fighter contract off the table politically, while reasserting the Conservatives' reputation as responsible managers of the public purse.That has been made possible, industry insiders believe, by commander of the RCAF Lt. Gen. Yvan Blondin's assertion before the Senate defence committee last March 25, that the Air Force's CF-18s are flyable through 2025. Previously the planes' best-before date was deemed to be 2020.Why the change of heart? The theory making the rounds in Ottawa is twofold. First, members of the caucus and cabinet are acutely aware that they need good-news stories, or at least the absence of more bad news stories, as they head into the preelection period. Second, in the context of U.S. President Barack Obama's continuing chilliness towards the Keystone XL Pipeline, there is a new determination at senior levels of the government to put Canadian industrial regional benefits first, and cut the best deal possible, for the best plane, at the best price, with the greatest economic benefit to Canada.All of which, if true, would appear to be good news. Better late - even very, very late - than never.
This actually does surprise me. Canada made a commitment to the F-35 program. They will say they did not, but when there are work contracts pitched and held onto by 70 Canadian companies that is as good as a commitment. For a while I have been telling my Canadian friends that Lockheed Martin had simply sank their teeth in too deep already and they were going to get the F-35 no matter what. Looks like I was wrong. The political situation in Canada seems to have deteriorated to a point where the government can't afford to lose any face over anything anymore, not even the F-35. The competition would result in them going down the Australia route with a mix of Super Hornets and F-35As. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteI actually welcome a contest…. As long as everybody sends a plane or two. This way we can FINALLY see an F-35 wipe the floor with the competition in something other than on paper or in a simulator. If will also be nice to see an Apples-to-Apples price comparison for procurement and lifetime support. The JPO should be out late this year with new, real world numbers for support to help back it’s claims also.
ReplyDeleteThis line is a bit funny:
“there is a new determination at senior levels of the government to put Canadian industrial regional benefits first, and cut the best deal possible, for the best plane, at the best price, with the greatest economic benefit to Canada.”
The F-35 has ALREADY benefited Canadian mfgs and will continue to do so for a very long time. Any other plane can only offer short term benefits.
You've got to be joking. The F-35 has been shielded from any real competition. If Canada decides to make any Super Hornet purchases I highly doubt there will be a competition. If by some chance there is a competition then the F-35 will be exempt from it. None of the JSF combat systems work and all information available states that the F-35 would be extremely ineffective, especially in Canada's environment where the cold would damage the sensors. I don't think Lockheed Martin would want to risk the F-35 embarrassing itself by falling apart in a Canadian competition. They will find a way out of it.
DeleteIf Canada were to buy Super Hornets, Boeing has promised to match whatever industrial benefits Lockheed Martin proposed. As long as there are Super Hornets in service there will be work contracts available for their operation and Boeing has still got a lot to offer with the Advanced Super Hornet upgrade package.
The F-35 has not been available for competitions because it’s in the middle of SDD! What completion has there been where the US could afford to miss a few F-35s for a month or two?
DeleteBy next year Block 2B (the USAF IOC standard on TR2 hardware with 3I software) will be flying in operational squadrons. At this point I think the JPO may release a few of them for a Canadian Competition. Block 2B includes A2A and A2G weapon systems, full data fusion, MADL, AESA radar, EOTS, EODAS, etc. The only thing missing is a few radar/comm modes, some weapon systems, and a little envelope expansion. Canada already gets about 10k pages of info a month on the JSF project, so it’s knowledge of its development cycle, true capabilities, etc is well known.
As far as “F-35 would be extremely ineffective”, again, stop drinking the APA/ELP Koolaid. We are not laughing with you but at you. Cold damaging the sensors, seriously?? You are aware that the F-22 operates in Alaska, right? What sensor do you think will be affected? Where do you get this stuff?
On the issue of offsets, there has been recent news of companies charging everything under the sun (like hotel and restaurant bills) as an offset because their offer does not have a long-term plan. This would not be an issue for the F-35 as the offsets are tied to a very large, long term fighter program.
Like I said, I welcome an Apples-to-Apples competition.
you're heading down the sferrin/f.\-16.net line here. quite honestly i don't want to hear from anyone from that site but i'll let you stay awhile, but what i won't hear is attempts to slam ELP, or Air Power Australia. they got more right than wrong on this and our very own SecDef has basically said that this airplane is eating the Pentagon alive.
Deletei can't emphasize that enough. i keep hearing cavalier attitudes about the massive troop cuts coming but those people dedicated themselves and in alot of cases risked life and limb. how are they repaid? by pushing them aside and all that tribal knowledge about how to fight a COIN in the belief that the F-35 is the end all be all.
so long story short i fucking hate what lockheed martin has done and is doing to my Marine Corps. i fucking hate the generals that used Marines, Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen like a cheap 3 dollar whore and now want to buy toys instead.
and i fucking hate the fact that these contracts are so convoluted that it takes an accounting degree to understand them.
this plane costs too damn much, in my opinion delivers too little and in my opinion we have more pressing priorities to take care of.
and another thing. democrats control the white house so the defense budget is what it is. because it is what it is we need the best bang for the buck we can afford. are you telling me that the SUper Hornet on carriers and using AV-8bs won't be a decent plan until we can develop a newer, cheaper STOVL airplane? i don't. oh and sferrin, if you peek your head in here i'll delete your shit again. you're not welcome here you sniveling little bastard.
That's what LM will say to explain the F-35 not being in any competitions. Sounds just like an excuse to me. All I see is them winning in contracts and locking in countries without their aircraft having to actually perform first.
DeleteThe F-35 needs heated hangers in Florida because the cold at night damages the sensors. The F-22 doesn't have the same sensor suite so it obviously wouldn't have the same problems. I don't know what sensors are affected, but I do know that it is connected the batteries that power crucial systems in the jet. The Pentagon released a report on it earlier this year and when Canada got a hold of it there was a large argument in their halls of power over it: http://digitaljournal.com/article/345285
Try and stay up to date.
If you seriously think that the Block 2B will be ready next year then you need to stop drinking the Lockheed Martin Koolaid. They have never delivered on any of their software timeline promises and even now there are still the most optimistic F-35 supporters saying that they see "slight delays and risk" with the software. Do you seriously just believe everything LM tells you without looking at their track record first?
You can compare hotels and restaurant bills to this all you want but that still doesn't take into account the epic fuck ups that can happen to carefully laid plans when the politics don't work out. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
“Needing” heated hangers due to sensors… I see you just making shit up as you go along. :(
DeleteThe main problem with naysayers, of any program, is that they think that a problem discovered is a problem that remains. They never let go of it, even when faced with evidence that it has been resolved.
--------------------------QUOTE-------------------------
The F-35's battery system has run into a different problem on the ground, with some airplanes failing to start during cold temperatures under 10 degrees Celsius, DellaVedova said.
He cited "minor irregularities" that had been traced back to a software issue in the jet's battery charger control unit, and a fix was in the works for new jets in production and would be retrofitted on earlier jets. The problem, he said, was not related to the batteries themselves.
In the meantime, he said, measures were being taken to warm the area near the battery on cold days prior to start.
One defense official said maintainers at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida were using space heaters in some to warm the jets,
SOURCE
--------------------------END QUOTE-------------------------
Several things to take away from that:
1. The problem is the battery charger, not a sensor
2. The batteries are only affected under 10 degrees C
3. A software fix is in the works
4. The heating of the F-35 charging bay (not the whole hanger) is a local, temporary solution until the fix is applied
5. This is a wrinkle in the SDD program and will not affect operational jets.
Now who can’t keep up to date ;)
Btw, I did not say that 2B will be ready, just flying in operation squadrons next year. It’s called concurrency for a reason. Block 2B has been flying at Edwards AFB since the beginning of 2013, so It is safe to say that it will be in 2014 delivered jets.
Were you aware that LRIP6 jets will be delivered with TR2 & Bloock3i? They start delivery of them in 2014. Considering the article on the Canadian decision talks about a competition that will likely happen in 2015/16, 2B will be just fine by then.
SpudmanWP, this debate is over. You just contradicted yourself and then you immediately changed your stance and had to look up information to make yourself current after I presented a problem to you.
ReplyDeleteEverything you just said in your last post actually agrees with exactly what I said. In fact, all you did was give me the specifics that I was missing. I said it was a sensor connected to the batteries. Sensor? Battery charger? What difference does it make? I knew it was connected to the batteries and I stated that before. You only went and looked for the specifics of it after I brought it to your attention. How stupid do you look right now?
Only 10 degrees C? Gee, I guess it's a good thing that there are no places in Canada below 10 degrees Celsius... oh, wait, shit. There actually are. You realize that your last post in fact helped my argument. THE F-35 CAN'T HANDLE COLD WEATHER. Lockheed Martin will not risk it embarrassing itself in a competition with this problem.
A heated space in a hanger (especially when that space is modified for the jet) is still a heated hanger. If the jet can't operate without that, then it is a necessity. Again, you only looked this up after I brought it to your attention and the best you could come up with was to try and say that it's not a heated hanger because only a certain space modified specifically for the jet is heated? How stupid do you look right now?
LM has been giving us the same "a fix is in the works" statement for the past decade. We haven't seen anything fixed to satisfaction yet. Everytime they say "a fix is in the works" it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't bring results. They never show what those fixes are. They are just making empty promises. You just buy into everything that they say and take it as fact.
Let me quote your earlier statement on the software: "Block 2B includes A2A and A2G weapon systems, full data fusion, MADL, AESA radar, EOTS, EODAS, etc. The only thing missing is a few radar/comm modes, some weapon systems, and a little envelope expansion."
So when you backed down from your statement earlier are you saying any of the things you mentioned above won't be ready? Make up your fucking mind. You say it's safe to say that it will be delivered in 2014? According to who? You? All your posts show you don't know jack shit and will only research a topic if someone brings it to your attention.
I have lost all respect for you. I'm done with this.
For someone who does not know the difference between LM, P&W, and RR contracts, you throw a lot of “you don’t’ know shit” statements around.
ReplyDeleteLet’s look at what you said vs the FACTS:
Fiction: “None of the JSF combat systems work”
Fact: Various F-35 systems have been in development & working for 10+ years. Block 2B has been flying at Edwards for over 6 months. The APG-81, EODAS, EOTS, MADL, HMDS, etc have all demonstrated various levels of functionality pursuant to their Block level.
Fiction: ”all information available states that the F-35 would be extremely ineffective”
Fact: Information available, to the people who have access to it and have reported on it, says quite the opposite. Australian testimony (subject to perjury) states that manned F-35 simulations show the F-35 to be quite superior to “Advanced Red Air” in the 2025 timeframe.
Fiction: “extremely ineffective, especially in Canada's environment where the cold would damage the sensors.” & “cold at night damages the sensors”
Fact: It’s the software in the charger that needs updating. No damage is done to anything. The issue will be fixed LONG before Canada ever sees its first F-35.
Fiction: “The F-35 needs heated hangers”
Fact: Only a small area of one side of the F-35 needed to be heated. It was a short-term tempory fix and will never be used in operational environments.
Fiction: “THE F-35 CAN'T HANDLE COLD WEATHER”
Fact: You say that after knowing that it is a software issue and will be fixed soon. Biased much?
Fiction: “LM has been giving us the same "a fix is in the works" statement for the past decade. We haven't seen anything fixed to satisfaction yet”
Fact: This is an SDD program and just like any other, there will be issues that come up. Can you name a problem from earlier that has not been addressed?
http://cdainstitute.blogspot.com/2013/01/replacing-cf18-part-i-fa-18e-super.html
ReplyDelete"If Canada were to buy Super Hornets, Boeing has promised to match whatever industrial benefits Lockheed Martin proposed."
how? if Canada buys F-35s that get to build parts for a production run of over 3,000 aircraft. If they buy the F-18 they can build parts for the last few dozen F-18s still on order and their own before the line shuts down for good?
Boeing can't match LMs deals, no one can offer anyone a piece of a 3,000 plane share. not EADs, Boeing, Sukhoi, anyone. There is only one type out there with thousands of aircraft to be produced and its the JSF. Thats just reality.
Canada buys 65 JSFs and they get to produce parts for a fleet of 3,000 over the next 40 years. Thats called a great fucking deal. Boeing can't match that and they know it.
The F-35 has 3000+ PROJECTIONS. The current contracts reach no where near that level and are being cut globally, and I don't see Lockheed inking any new orders as of late. Without volume the F-35 does not survive, clear and simple. It will suffer the same fate as the F-22 eventually.
DeleteBoeing can keep production open, just as the F-15 has survived multiple closings in 1995, 2000, and 2012. The Navy has an MYP until mid 2016, and even then they will most likely keep the line open with small orders. Also, a deal with Boeing for Canadian industry leads to much more opportunity than the F-18 alone.
If projections were taken as fact as much as they are for the F-35 program, we would all be rich.
Canada needs an affordable and capable fihter with two engines,period.
ReplyDeleteExpensive passive Stealth technology doesn't work against EO/IR sensors.
We need a combination of Super Hornets/Growlers and UAVs like the Tritons to detect any intrude and to control our airspace and electomagnetic spectum.
If canada wants to participate in any conjoined operation it will be better to go with some Growlers and Super hornets rather than F-35 with it's limited internal payload and limited electonic warfare suite compared wit the Growlers.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQUdbw__g_Q&sns=em
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYGM-aB1Luc&sns=em
So your solution is to get a fighter that "doesn't work", not only against EO/IR, but Radar as well?
DeleteYou are aware that with radar you can be detected 100s of kilometers away and EO/IR only works 10s of kilometers, right?
My solution is not to spend billions in fighters that can be detected 24/7 from very high altitude at ranges of 2000NM with the same EO/IR technology already used by the Tritons or from at sea level from a ship.
Deletehttp://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/Triton/Documents/pageDocuments/Triton_data_sheet.pdf
http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/SilentWatchEODAS/Pages/default.aspx
um, Are you high?
DeleteNobody has ever claimed the ability to detect aircraft, any aircraft, from 2000 miles away using ANY kind of EO gear.
The F-35 was only able to detect a launching rocket from 800 due to the MASSIVE amount of thrust it put out. Even they did not claim A2A fighter detection from that range.
I wish so but not. What it's extremely high is the Triton that don't even need to use it's EO/IR sensor to detect the F-35 from above, just it's radar. Because it's colossal engine, the F-35 at the top and certain angles is as stealth as a beer barrel. Watch again my video
ReplyDeletewww.youtube.com/watch?v=gQUdbw__g_Q&sns=em
The F-35 will have to remain silent using only it;s EO/IR sensors to detect other airplanes, the Tritons or other UAV at extremely high altitude will use it's radars and EO/IR sensors fusioned.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQyf2jeElyg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sshhb5ISHvI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdMLIchXwkY
ReplyDeleteTriton's radar is A2G only... it could not detect a 747 as it passed by.
ReplyDeleteTry to do some research other than wiki.
Are you high? Even old 2D radars from airports can give you the distance, position, trajectory and speed of small airplanes at hundreds of NM.
ReplyDeleteBy simple geometry and using the IR sensor fusioned with the radar the Triton can obtain the altitude of the targets at extended ranges.
You dont like the Tritons? What about the Pakfa or Mig31 that will flight Km above the F-35?
With their powerfull radars they will see It's masive engine and Cockpit back like the RCS of a Jumbo Jet.
As some critics say, the term stealth is just a marketing invention from L Martin to fool the fanboys.
5th Generation I mean
ReplyDeleteAirport radars are designed to detect airborne objects. Maritime search radar is not. It's that simple.
ReplyDeleteI have no problem with the Triton. It will work just fine for what it is designed to do, ie long range Maritime search.
"Airport radars are designed to detect airborne objects. Maritime search radar is not. It's that simple."
ReplyDeleteOh? I served onboard the USS Midway in the early 80's. I worked in OC Division/Air Operations which is the ships Air traffic control center. Believe me, we could pick up airborne objects hundreds of miles out, even with our old radar. Me thinks you have shit for brains.