I don't get the open carry crowd.
I've asked what the point of these type confrontations with police were about and why cause a disturbance and public shock by open carrying and the response is always the same. Its my right and unless you exercise your rights you'll lose them. I understand that thinking in the case of a mental exercise but reality is totally different.
But the worst part is that it does nothing to help the gun rights movement and as a matter of fact it hurts it. Additionally I expect to see one of two things happening. Buffer zones established around certain buildings where open carry is not legal, or an outright ban on the practice.
Long story short. This kind of thing isn't helping and will hurt the cause.
Yep.
ReplyDeleteWhat a tool.
ReplyDeleteOpenly carrying a firearm while taking pictures of police building is easily considered "suspicious behaviour". This guy obviously set out to antagonize the cops and make a spectacle of himself.
He's lucky they didn't just shoot him first and then make up a story after.
So dozens of SWAT officers kicking in doors in a neighborhood near you is fine, but one CITIZEN breaking no laws is bad? As for the mental exercise stuff, reality is totally different. We are rapidly moving towards a OPENLY full police state status, and since big gov isn't stopping it, we, the people, might just have to push back.
ReplyDeleteA well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Infringed is a powerful word. REQ
you haven't been on my blog before because if you had then you'd realize that i bitch about the militarization of police to the annoyance of many.
Deletethey're not annoyed that i talk about it but because i talk about it too much.
still that doesn't make this open carry stuff any better. quite honestly if you're walking around with an AR on your back then you're asking for trouble. either the cops are gonna deal with ya or a citizen that isn't aware that you're exercising your rights is gonna consider you a threat and act appropriately.
but you know all that. the deal here is when is over the top over the top. i think open carry takes it there.
where do you see open carry? in states that already have CCW laws that are good to go. so what are they proving? nothing! what are they jeopardizing? everything.
its a clown play in my opinion and someone is gonna get hurt because some people don't know when to say when.
"its a clown play in my opinion and someone is gonna get hurt because some people don't know when to say when."
ReplyDeleteThat's the gist of it, right there. These guys are narcissists, plain and simple. Has nothing to do with actual rights or societal good.
Bad Op Sec.
ReplyDeleteI can wear a tutu with a WWII m42 Stahlhelm and pass out leaflets about the merits of masturbation because it's my right, but I don't want to waste my rights on that issue.
Sure, it's your right, but it also attracts negative attention, which is supposed to be the opposite of why you carry. I carry and I don't attract attention, good or bad. I'm not under the radar, I am OFF the radar.
If we lived in the 19th century and open carry was de rigueur, no problem. Or if the gun groups organized a National Open Carry Day or Week to make it an educational/ rights awareness issue, fine, but without that individuals are just viewed as 'lone wolfs'.
These sovereign citizens and rights activists want to promote awareness? You need a campaign with steps for that.
Sit down with a local LEO office, inform them you and your friends will be open-carrying per the law, offer to have a friendly pro-gun attorney instruct the LEOs, alert the media that at such a time and place you and your group will be open-carrying to promote awareness and safety, then hold your event. Then continue open-carrying after you've raised awareness and educated the ignor-a-masses.
In this day and age, we have too many dumb clucks who panic at the sight of a firearm.
If he was truly just a student taking pictures, why at night? And why would he leave his identification in his truck? I think it was to attract the attention. Agree with Paralus and Allan, lucky he didn't get shot.
ReplyDeleteso what you are saying is, you're fine with police brutality, just so long as a citizen doesn't exercise his Rights to Openly Carry? am I understanding you correctly?
DeleteNo I'm not saying I'm fine with police brutality. I never even came close to saying that. I did say I agreed with him not getting shot, which would have been an unjust shooting, in my opinion. What I am saying is, why would you go out at night photographing a federal building, with a camera phone, and not have your identification on hand? Okay he has the right to open carry, does that also give him the right to be openly stupid? What I don't get is when confronted by an officer of the law, why are we so now obsessed with pushing their buttons to prove a point?
DeleteI think your premise is wrong. Why are you asking the point of these confrontations with cops and not what is the point of these confrontations with open carry practitioners? The statists have succeeded in altering your perception about these events to blame the citizen and not the state. There is nothing illegal about open carry of firearms in some states and yet the police are constantly harassing those that exercise that right. And you come along and blame the guy exercising the right and not the guy violating his right to exercise it.
ReplyDeleteBingo!
DeleteParalus, we do that in every city we walk into. ...and STILL they illegally arrest us, violating our Rights (see Temple and McAllen, TX to name the most recent and prevalent cases).
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't understand, is how in a day in which our Rights are being violate, negated and nullified at an ever increasing and rather alarming rate, more and more police brutality being televised, and those of us who stand up for our Constitution and Rights there of, are STILL looked down upon.
Buffer zones or an out right ban on open carry. Is a violation on the 2nd ammendment. It is my duty and against my oath and every veteren/active service member, soldiers and squids alike. I will disobey any such laws. I will treat those who choose to enforce these laws as traitors to their oaths and to their duty as citizens of this land. I have had enough of our constitution being torn apart. Law enforcement is now using gestopo tactics and terrorizing citizens with increased frequency. Wether you get it or not, matters not. It is time to draw a line in the sand. Mine is drawn. I will not tell you where to draw yours, but if you refuse to draw one. Due to fear. I will call you coward.
ReplyDeleteI Agree
DeleteHow can we not see the hypocrisy of having to pay an addition fee for a permit (CCW) to exercise a constitutional right, and only in secret?
Whats next? Voting permits? A licence to hand out flyers?
While it may be your opinion that any ban/restriction on open carry is a violation of the 2nd amendment, your opinion on the matter doesn't actually matter. Law is Law. The second amendment does not explicitly grant an open carry privileged. The 2nd amendment can be interpreted in many ways, about the only thing that it explicitly protects against is an out right ban on arms ownership. Everything else is nuance and interpretation.
DeleteAs far as voting permits, we have historically actually had those.
As far as a license to hand out flyers, there are actually very real restrictions on first amendment rights.
The 2nd amendment was has never been interpreted as carte blanche wrt weapons and was likely never intended to be.
If you want it to be interpreted as carte blanche then you have to be prepared for your neighbors to be toting around nuclear weapons.
The reality is that in general, weapons are less restricted currently than they have been historically.
Somebody stated, "lucky he didn't get shot". How can you be so indoctrinated tthat you think it is ok for some guy who recieved a six week merrit badge at a police academy has some special rights to dictate wether or not someone has the right to life or not. Police should have to abide by the same self defence laws as citizens! End of story!!!
ReplyDeleteIn some places like AZ not having an open carry handgun is a great way to get your motorcycle jacked.
ReplyDeleteOpen carry is not a provocation, its a constitutional right, if the boys in blue don't understand that, the problem is not with the citizen
It is a right, indeed, but for the past 100 years, most people haven't been exercising it except for more rural, gun-friendly parts of the country. Our rights don't exist in some sort of vacuum, free from prejudice, sanity or bad judgement by LE. In the real world, people freak out, even if you are exercising your rights. LE are taught from day one to profile people and identify who might be carrying drugs, weapons, etc.
ReplyDeleteThe procedures and training of LE to detain, interrogate and arrest open carry practitioners, as wrong is it is legally and constitutionally, is what it is today because most people were not exercising their rights. 50 years of LE training and education says "stop the dude with the gun" and then the You Tube activists act all huffy that they get stopped.
Then comes the internet activists and You Tube Commandos intent on exercising their rights with the hope of provoking a response they can capture on video to boost their egos and advance their agenda. If they are really intent on promoting awareness of open carry among LE agencies and within their communities, there are better ways of doing it than provoking a response from LE. It takes more than lone-wolf You Tube commandos with an agent provocateur agenda to educate groups of people.
oh its worse than that Paralus. most of the Open Carry Zealots are "exercising their rights" in places that are already gun friendly! they're doing this in states that have some of the least restrictive gun laws in this nation.
Deletedo this in New York and you're toast with the FBI, NYPD and several other agencies trying to figure out who gets to kill you. do it in Arizona WHILE YOU"RE PHOTOGRAPHING A FEDERAL BUILDING and you get pissed because you're asked to identify yourself by a LEO?
someone is smoking crack and it ain't me.
that's crazy AND stupid. long story short, this kind of thing isn't getting any new converts .... what it is doing is turning off he middle and making soccer Mom USA think that these guys toting guns out in the open are a danger.
How dare they carry guns openly in gun friendly states!!
ReplyDeleteWho says they are trying to "convert" anyone? I didn't know you had to "get people on your side" to exercise your rights. Who are we trying to win over? This is like saying we can only write great literature or they might ban books.
Most Soccer Mom USAs understand danger BTW, some carry knives, others mace, they even own and shoot guns themselves.
is it really so hard to understand how this will negatively affect gun rights? is it really so hard to see how this is doing exactly the wrong thing in the battle of public relations?
Deleteare you really so determined to do this that you can't see how at many steps along the way the person in the above video could have been detained and questioned?
photographing federal buildings? then refusing to identify himself? then performing a legal but provocative act?
women undressing and getting on stage is legal in a strip club but turns into indecent exposure on the street.
carry a gun concealed is legal if you've passed background checks (to determine that you are not a criminal) but open carry becomes something that is alarming to the general public. yes its legal for now but how long will it be in the future?
Yes it is hard for me to see how exercising rights is hurting them. They are rights, not privileges not something to be given or taken away on a whim.
DeleteSo you are upset that this person violated a law that doesn't exist yet or could theoretically exist in the future?
This is the kind of soft fascism you are always railing against. What the hell kind of logic is "its not illegal now, but it could be, so don't do it"
If you don't believe in open carry then why do you care if/when they make it illegal? If its legal now I am going to continue to do it. I'll stop when they make a law against it. Are bending over for authorities now to the point where they don't even need to make any laws the way to protect your rights?
So he wants to act like an ass and this is suppose to help the cause? I'm an officer and very much pro 2nd amendment, but this guy was looking for the confrontation. You know he said he has his right not to give up his gun, but the officers had every right to disarm him while they were investigating him for officer safety reasons. It seems to me if they would have done that this could have turned out very bad for this idiot.
ReplyDeleteGo to rallies support the NRA or any number of organizations that help fight to keep gun rights. Heck buy more guns the Wildlife Restoration Program always needs more money, but be smart about it.
I wonder how many of these guys are even ex-military. I am all for rights and the exercise of same but you are right, Sol, our rights do not exist in a vacuum. There is the balancing of rights and as much as it might be uncomfortable to admit, the court of public opinion is very important. While most U.S. citizens still support the 2nd Amendment, it still doesn't mean they are comfortable around people with open carry. A supporter of open carry might argue that their right is more important than somebody's uncomfortableness but I liken it to the douche-bags that I see all the time that wear shirts that say something really offensive. Sure, its their right but they are still considered douches.
ReplyDeleteIts obvious that this guy was out to prove something that could have turned sour real quick. The cops have enough to deal with without having to waste their time on this nonsense. BTW, here in Washington State, there are plenty of men and women that make a point of visiting Starbucks with open carry (as they have a policy of not protesting against it)and I notice other patrons feeling uncomfortable. Doesn't seem to effect them as much when I am there as my SIG is tucked away where its easy to get to but is never visible. I want to keep that right and I feel that I depend on the good graces of my fellow citizens who might not feel as passionately about the 2nd Amendment as the rest of us. The sad fact is that most of our fellow citizens don't understand the intent or reason for the 2nd Amendment. I feel our efforts are better spent in helping educate our neighbors rather than alienating them by sophomoric behavior. Ask yourself this question: What are my responsibilities as a citizen while exercising my rights?
My own experience with open carry is mixed. When I was in Arizona, open carry on the hip did not bother me at all from passers by. Here in Penn. we get a number of open carry as well. It does not bother me if it is a pistol on the belt, or a long arm as some one is heading into a field or the woods. All those make perfect sense and such to me, but carrying an AR or any other long arm around during a suburban or urban environment makes me think the person is an active shooter. The one time I passed some one doing it in a mall parking lot he had the weapon held in one hand, muzzle pointed down. IF the individual had not shown less of restraint he likely would have caught a bullet in the chest. Both my wife and I had already reach for our own concealed carry firearms and were very edgy around the individual. I will admit that if he had swung that muzzle carelessly while looking in my direction I would have shot him and claimed self defense, since his intentions would have been very questionable at that time. THAT is why these idiots like the one in the video need to use some more brains; open carry to provocation leaves intent of the wielder very open to question.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of good points here. Two weeks ago OCT went to a Texas WalMart and had a "good" encounter as they call it with law enforcement. They recorded and and posted it on YouTube. In the video, they asked the officer different scenarios such as how would the officer respond if he carried it inside the store and how would he react if he pointed it at people. The officer gave vague answers, and this week the next fruit cake came with the gun and tried to enter the store. The store management warned him away. He was detained and asked to leave. I guess next they will do the next scenario asked in their video, which is go in and point it at someone. Most likely a law abiding CHL holder will be nearby and solve the problem. This is not going to help the cause, and I am for the right to carry, just not the part about being stupid in doing so. Someone is about to get hurt in Texas over this, and hopefully it will be the ones instigating the situation. I know the OCT people are not the next mass casualty gunmen, but they are setting an example for people to let down their guard against the next one.
ReplyDelete