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| Lt. Col. C.R. “Jimi” Clift makes the first F-35B Lightning II night landing on USS Wasp during the second at-sea F-35 developmental test event, Aug. 14. The F-35 Integrated Test Force is embarked on the Wasp for three weeks to expand the F-35B operational envelope in preparation for Marine Corps initial operational capability test in 2015. (Photo by MCSN Michael T. Forbes II, U.S. Navy) |
Not at the achievement but at my reaction to it.
A little while ago I would have been thumping my chest saying that this is a great step toward the plane going into service.
That was before it dawned on me (with the cancellation of the Marine Personnel Carrier Program) that the Marine Corps was selling it soul for the privilege of paying through every orifice for the chance to buy the damn thing.
I got bombarded with e-mails saying that the F-35 wasn't causing budget issues, that the Marine Corps was paying for the plane from a separate account. I got ridiculed for changing my mind about it.
Then the SecDef and later on that lying bastard Amos confirmed what I already knew. Its buy F-35's or nothing else.
The F-35 landed on an LHA at night.
It landed on the throat of the Marine Corps a loooong time ago.
Sidenote; What is the real deal with the Wasp? Its been out of service for so long that its almost criminal. The Marine Corps is crying for amphibious shipping but we have a big deck that can't get out of sight of the coast for almost 8 years now? This almost demands a Congressional Investigation.
Got this from Eric Palmer's Blog.
ReplyDeleteSo apparently the Marine Corps has not been honest about the price of the F-35B. This new contract awarded to Rolls-Royce for 3 lift-fan systems last month to support the 3 F-35B short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft ordered under LRIP-5 is $195.5 million. Divide that by the three aircraft and you get the engines costing $65M each: http://www.rolls-royce.com/news/press_releases/2013/3072013_f_35B_lightning.jsp
So, take the Defense-Aerospace figure of $291.7M for each of the 3 F-35B aircraft under LRIP-5 and add $65M. The total comes to $356.7M.
Keep in mind that the weapons system cost (the most expensive measure of cost, which includes the price to build and put into service) of the Super Hornet is $80M and the fly away cost (the cost to build a single unit)is about $66.9M. One of the engines on the F-35B costs roughly the same as a single Super Hornet aircraft to build. The $356.7M figure if it is truely accurate equates to 4.5 Super Hornets to build and put into service. I need to do a little more research into the Defense-Aerospace figure and what it consists of, but as I translate the math into Super Hornets it looks almost as bad as the zombie apocalypse.
This is getting insane...
this is past insane. i haven't decided how i'm gonna approach it but this program is not only putting Marine Corps procurement in question (along with the V-22 in my opinion) but its also having a devastating effects on our very concepts of operations.
Deletewe're getting to a point where equipment is going to dictate our tactics instead our tactics dictating our equipment.
the very concept of combined arms is in danger because of this program. i would even go so far to say that the US defense establishment is in danger because of it.
consider this too. with the MPC, ACV, GCV and AMPV all being pushed out five to ten years from now, you're going to see a vital part of our defense industrial base disappear.
all the experience is not going to have anyone to pass that knowledge along to because we're not even going to have minor programs to keep it running.
lockheed not only cornered the market on fighters but it also put the defense of our nation and its future in jeopardy. all for a fucking airplane. an airplane!
whats even worse is that this is happening and the USAF, USN, well maybe the Marines but the others aren't getting what they really want in their next fighter. its like everyone is too scared at this point to say this is CRAZY. this isn't going to work and its not in our best interests.
a total lack of courage. they'll face combat. they'll face rocket fire but they can't face ridicule by changing their minds when shit becomes obvious. i'm so frustrated i can't see straight.
venting here, but you can bet little bastards like sferrin will toss out the rally terms like "stay the course" and "don't quit when the going gets tough".....that's why Custer got massacred!
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Deleteyou need to chill the fuck out bitch. i erased it by accident. but since you want to pull a sferrin you can get scrubbed too.
DeleteNP, here it is.
DeleteSome people on the net need to learn to read, plain and simple. That and stop drinking the APA/ELP Koolaid.
That “$195.5 million” contract was between P&W and RR, not the DoD and RR. Here is the quote from RR:
“The final agreement with Pratt & Whitney for the fifth production lot includes three complete LiftSystems, spares, sustainment, program management, engineering and field support.”
Notice that it is a contract with P&W and also includes spares, support, etc.
You will also notice that this announcement does not appear on Defense.gov. In other words, it is not a government, but a business to business contract. The DoD contracts with P&W for the entire propulsion system and P&W subcontracts the LiftSystem work to RR.
A little Google-Fu and you can see that previous RR contracts (2008, 2009, 2012) come in at under $20 mil a pop. Obviously this latest contract covers more than what was covered in previous contracts. Let me be clear… the price that the DoD pays for a F-35B will NOT go up by $40 mill a plane over what is in the budget already.
Okay, so I looked for US government contracts for the F-35B engines and apparently its around $38 million in the most recent contract: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_07_30_2013_p0-602401.xml
DeleteHowever, that contract doesn't include the $852M one awarded recently to the F-35 program though. Multiple contracts are awarded along the LRIP batches and the money in those contracts goes to practically everything needed for the production of the jets. The true engine costs are also going to being harder to pin down if Lockheed Martin is awarded another new contract for the LRIP 6 and LRIP 7 lots. To be honest I still think that the contracts between P&W and RR are the most accurate depiction we can get of the true engine costs that the DOD is paying for.
trying to nail exact costs on this plain is like trying to nail jello to a wall.
Deletethe US govt and Lockheed both have an interest in keeping the price secret, but since they have disclosure responsibilities they make it as convoluted as possible so that supporters can point to the massaged numbers and have an argument.
we know everything we need to know from that press conference.
its buy the F-35 or nothing else. or buy everything else and not the F-35.
lol, so much for me needing to learn how to read. Looks more like some people on the net need to learn how to think critically and analyze better.
Delete@Andrew: You are mixing your apples and oranges again.
DeleteThe F-35B $38mil is the price for the entire propulsion system (F135 and Liftsystem). The $20 mil that I mentioned above, and all the RR contracts, only cover the Liftsystem and not the F135. Their cost to the DoD are covered entirely within P&W contract announcements. The DoD does not contract with RR or LM for the cost of the propulsion section of the F-35. Spend some time on Defense.gov and practice your Google-Fu.
@Solomon: We will never see a contract for just the procurement cost of the engine, Liftsystem, etc. Contracts always include things like support, spares, etc. The best we can do is look at the annual budget docs and look at the procurement line items for those things. I emailed RR on the issue of the $195, but I am not holding my breath on getting an explanation on the extra $135 mil and what it covers. The only clue I could find in the announcement is the line about RR setting up 5 new US support facilities.
As to keeping it secret, that does not happen as a general rule. Sure, you may never now to the dollar what something costs, but every contract over $5 mil has to be announced.
Wait a second, let me get this straight. You are trying to separate the cost of the engine and the Liftsystem, which together basically form the same component. Why on earth would you do that? I'm talking about factoring in the cost of the engine (Liftsystem included) to find the total price of the F-35B, which right now looks to be the same as 4.5 Super Hornets. Seriously what the fuck are you doing and where is your logic?
DeleteThere is no possible way that the engine (Liftsystem included) costs $38 million in its entirety and for LM to need another contract for $852 million for the production of the jets. That is ludicrous. At least a portion of that $852 million went to the engines (Liftsystem included) and if LM is awarded another contract then a good portion of that new contract will go to the engines (Liftsystem included). There is no way to nail down the true costs of the F-35B's engine (including the Liftsystem) for DoD by looking at a single contract. The contracts between P&W and RR are in fact, possibly the closest thing we will find to helping us get an idea of the true costs of the F-35B.
Once again, you are confusing your costs, sources, and producers.
DeleteThe DoD basically only writes contracts with two entities when it comes to the F-35. They are P&W and LM.
The P&W contracts cover the entire Propulsion section, F135 and Liftsystsm (where appropriate).
LM contracts cover everything else. LM will never be awarded a contract that covers the cost of the F135, the Liftsystem, or viseversa.
That being said, I separated the $20 mil Liftsystem price from the $18 mil F135 price because we were talking specifically about the RR contract that only covers the Liftsystem and not the F135.
Btw, the $852 is a LM contract for LRIP6 Special tools and Equipment (StE). Each LRIP has its own StE contract and there has not been a LRIP6 StE contract to date. NONE of the $852 is going to P&W or RR. You are aware that each LRIP will have over 10 contracts awarded that each deal with a different aspect of the program, right?
If you want to look at the RR contract to see the “true cost” of the Liftsystem, then look at the 2012 contract and notice that the Liftsystem (with spares and support) costs only $18.5 million ($315 mil / 17 Liftsystems).
Good stuff, great landing, making history.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that this night landing was made with the "troubled" helmet that they have been using for over three years (HMDS Gen2) and not the new one or the BAE "just in case" one. It only gets better from here.
DeleteGreat job all around.
Another picture here
ReplyDelete