News is out that the S. Koreans are invalidating their own competition and are going to do the whole thing over again, but this time add more weight to stealth.
I'm not surprised. The AVIATION section of Lockheed Martin, along with their public relations outfit are unbelievably slimy.
I have some advice for Boeing.
YOU WON. THEY'RE CHEATING. IF THEY KEEP CHANGING THE RULES THEN DON'T PLAY! Quite simply just boycott S. Korea.
The results are a forgone conclusion. The F-35 couldn't beat you in a fair contest. Don't give them the pleasure of winning in a rigged one.
I'm not surprised. The AVIATION section of Lockheed Martin, along with their public relations outfit are unbelievably slimy.
I have some advice for Boeing.
YOU WON. THEY'RE CHEATING. IF THEY KEEP CHANGING THE RULES THEN DON'T PLAY! Quite simply just boycott S. Korea.
The results are a forgone conclusion. The F-35 couldn't beat you in a fair contest. Don't give them the pleasure of winning in a rigged one.
That is a bad idea.
ReplyDeleteIt would make Boeing look like a petulant child.
They WON already, they should be happy.
What, where does it say that the S. Korean competition is being invalidated?
Oh, and do you put the C-130J and the F-16 in Lockheed's Aviation section? Those programs have never had much controversy.
no its a very good idea. why participate if the game is rigged. a petulant child? more like a smart adult! as far as the C-130/F-16? different regime. it should be obvious, even to you that slime is as slime does. this program reeks to high heaven. the whole world knows it. only a few of us have the COURAGE to say it.
DeleteWell, Boeing may just in-house a 5th gen fighter, which would be insane.
Deletethey're in housing a 6th gen fighter. the Navy asked for info. keep an eye on them. those squids have there shit together and are planning on skipping the F-35 if they had there way.
DeleteThat is true.
DeleteMaybe the USN will finally get a 21st Century Tomcat.
Perhaps I missed out on the obvious here, but which version of F-35 is in the running ?
DeleteThat would be the F-35C, Twenty. Carrier-borne variant.
DeleteActually, the real subtext to all this is the damn delays in the F-35 program. It was supposed to be out and in Korean service years ago, but the delays are currently forcing them to look for an interm solution like the Australians. This is what is happening now, but with more dittering than Australia. Australia went straight to F-18s, Korea is still asking themselves "to spend for a makeshift solution or wait?"
DeleteLM or Boeing may be in a "competition", but the F-35 is the default winner as that was the original plan in the beginning, and the closer the F-35 comes to IOC, the less there is a need for a stand in solution, which means time is not on Boeing's side, which is a pity. I like the F-15SE, but in Asian cultures, what is not said can carry a lot of weight. In this case, the subtext is "We want the F-35, but it's taking too long, you're their stand in for the moment."
It just showed up in the Korean newspaper. They are holding a new competition with Stealth given a higher weighting in the scoring. The other companies should not participate. The power of the LM lobby is amazing.
ReplyDeletegreat minds think alike. the LM lobbying isn't amazing. its corrupting. the difference is simple though. everyone sees this for what it is and i don't believe they'll get away with it.
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Delete"They are holding a new competition with stealth given a higher weighting in the scoring. "
ReplyDeleteHas F-35 stealth ever been operationally tested against ground radars and also A2A, or is it just sales palaver? My guess it that like much of the F-35 capability, it has been "tested" by computer simulation and not actually.
According to the GAO report in April,
"To date, slightly more than 11 percent of development contract performance specifications have been verified as met and the development flight test program has cumulatively accomplished just over one-third of the test points and test flights planned. The operational test community raised concerns about the F-35 readiness for training, development test plans and results, and the schedule and resources for starting initial operational testing in 2017."
So if the US isn't going to test the F-35 operationally until 2017 (and that date will probably slip based on past experience and known technical questions) than how can ROK possibly test stealth?
Another question: Why does ROK require stealth? NorKor has about 40 Mig-29's, fourth gen, and perhaps some more coming. In this missile age, why use bombers at relatively short distances (southern North Korea).
So somebody got bought off, probably. I get a sense this is happening in Netherlands, too, and probably Canada and elsewhere. Money talks and ....
yes, the F-35 has been tested against all sorts of radars.
DeleteThey test them in gigantic radio wave proof rooms that look like they have spikes all over the walls, floor, and ceiling.
Are there any test reports from a neutral source like OT&E?
DeleteSpikes, I just got it. Also leather straps and whips? And Buffy the Vampire at the kill switch? Of course with all that stealth they don't even know the plane is there. Because it isn't. The program is a mirage. Not a Mirage. A mirage. It'[s okay -- testing an empty room yields better results than testing an F-35, which can't do hardly anything, but idiot countries buy it anyhow. Go Buffy!
Deletenews report:
ReplyDeleteA major criticism of the F-15 SE was that it lacked the radar-evading stealth capabilities of other modern jet fighters like the F-35. "There is a consensus that South Korea needs the fifth-generation fighter jet to deter the growing threat posed by North Korea," said Kim Min-Seok.
The "growing threat posed by North Korea" for sixty years now has been the gift that keeps on giving to the US-MIC in East Asia. (In western Asia it's Iran.)
Boeing should present the Advanced Super Hornet to the new competition. It's Stealthier than the F-15, way more cheaper than the F-35 with the same radar cross section at the front and rear and enough stealth at the sides. If they still choosing the F-35 will be their problem.
ReplyDeleteHold up there partner.
DeleteNow I know Boeing did a bit more RCS reduction on the ASH, but I am certain it isn't as good as the F-35. The ASH just isn't a stealth jet from the ground up.
The F-35 is not Stealth at the back, bottom and top, just at the front and sides. If it flight very high their irregular bottom and huge engine will be detected by surface radars. If they flight low, any fighter flying above will detect is colossal engine and cockpit. Not to much difference with an advanced Super Hornet.
DeleteThe idea that the SH is as stealthy as the F-35 is pure nonsense. The SH is larger, has far fewer canted edges, and does not have the same stealth finishing.
DeleteAlso the F-35s F135 engine is based on the raptor's stealthier F119 engine design. Comparing it to the SH on stealth is just silly.
superhornet larger than the F-35???? are yo usmoking crack????
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DeleteNo that must be your pipe man. If you're gonna rail against the plane ALL day and then mock people who actually know something make sure you check your facts first....
DeleteSuperhornet dimensions: 60 ft length 44 ft wingspan
F-35 dimension 50ft length 35 ft wing span.
Clearly much smaller. DO you not know the super hornet is over 20% larger than the original F-18? Its been oversized.
really dumbass? if you want to go only by wing size and not weight i'll play that game. guess what dummy? you went off F-35A stats you ignorant bastard. try measuring up the Super Hornet to the F-35C...the fucking carrier variant. oh and include weight in that measurement.
DeleteWe can talk about the number of canted edges 'til the cows come home. It doesn't have the capability unless and until it's been tested against detection devices and proven to have the capability. Otherwise it doesn't exist. It's just talk.
DeleteWell I'll tell you whats not talk. In the vast vast vast majority of air kills the the pilot is killed by an unseen/undetected enemy.
DeleteEssentially, statistically speaking what is BY FAR the most dominant factor in air combat has been the element of surprise and detecting the enemy first.
So the point of stealth is not at all all talk, its as real as its gonna get. If you ask any real pilot who is gonna win one of the first things they are gonna ask you is who detected the other first.
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DeleteAnd in the future some Growlers
ReplyDeletePathetic.
ReplyDeleteThis is bewildering.
ReplyDeleteThe main reason for the Typhoon's disqualification was because Eurofighter could not include enough two-seater models (6 vs the requested 15) while still being under budget... Meanwhile, the F-35 has NO two-seater version and can't be promised with any fixed price whatsoever!
Are they just making this shit up as they go along?
I thought my reaction to this would be anger, but honestly it was just cynicism. If a bunch of nations want to bankrupt themselves over this, then go ahead and let them. Let them be broken by this program and maybe they'll actually learn next time, that is hoping that it isn't too late for them to have a next time.
ReplyDeleteAt the recent AFA Air and Space Conference, Pacific Air Forces Commander Gen. Hawk Carlisle opined that China might not go Fifth Gen. Carlisle, noting that the Chinese have arrayed thousands of ballistic missiles and have developed a credible surface-to-air missile threat, along with capable and credible jamming and electronic warfare tools: "They may not need fifth generation fighters. If something happens in the Asia-Pacific, it's a home game for them."
ReplyDeleteSo General Carlisle is saying that a credible defense does not require (offensive) fifth gen fighters. If China may not need them, why would ROK need them against a "growing threat posed by North Korea?" It's a home game for them.
Dont know why you are all so surprised...LM HELPS South Korea building their T-50s...told you all that 2 weeks ago...
ReplyDeleteWant to know who will win the T-X competition?Bet you my left nut that it will be the T-50.
As for the F-35...the stealth specs where lowered,the performance was lowered,the price is up(or down,depending who you ask)...it either has some sort of «Martian death ray» and nothing comes close or i simply dont know what happening here...
I had wondered about that myself, the thing had Better have a frikkin laser beam on its head after all the trouble its caused....
DeleteT-X is a long ways off.
DeleteMaybe the Textron Scorpion with an F414 will win it.
Or the clean sheet Boeing design.
Meanwhile, a retired RCAF general just got a job heading up LockMart Canada. Yup. No payola there.
ReplyDeletehttp://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/09/24/retired-lt-gen-charles-bouchard-to-lead-lockheed-martin-canada/
If they are looking at F-35B after all, then the picture would be clearer...
ReplyDelete19,000ton (fl) LPH "Dokdo"-class flat-tops would be much more valuable as a (US-friendly) China Sea/West Pacific player if each had F-35Bs attached.
To say now that the threat of Nkorea is raising is a joke, they fly a couple of old MiG29s and some beat up Mig21s. Their SAM are almost all SAM-2s and SAM-3s and I don't see Russia or China giving them for free new fighters. Maybe they don't want to piss off China by naming them the growing threat???
ReplyDeleteIf I were BA or Euro, I wouldn't bother with showing up, Skorea isn't going to buy an European fighter, pretty funny that S Korea wanted more twin seaters and BA was the only candidate on time and budget and was a twin seater. Plus had REAL communality with the other F15s already in serivce, this is a mistake on the part of S Korea.
Boeing should offer it for $5 million dollars less than the first bid that won. Sort of a "I dare you fucks to explain it now"
ReplyDeletePathetic.....WTF were the South Koreans thinking. Their going to be waiting along time for the F-35, when they could have gotten the F15SE or the Advance Super Hornet in 2 to 4 years. Now their going to be sitting and waiting for years to get the F-35 and by then their neighbors including china will have fighters that can level the playing field. They need to have a Reality check here.
ReplyDelete"if you want to go only by wing size and not weight i'll play that game. guess what dummy? you went off F-35A stats you ignorant bastard."
ReplyDeleteWe were talking about stealth, surface area is what matters in that regards, not weight. At least read the context of what I mentioned the DIMENSIONS in. (the word dimension has no connotation to weight whatsoever, get it?)
Also, lets looks at the F-35C,
F35C: length 51 ft
wingspan: 43 ft.
Its still smaller than the super hornet even when you look at the biggest version to suit your needs. (F35A will be the most common 35, it makes sense to refer to it as the standard)
Oh and as far as weight just keep in mind the F35s weight changes less when fully loaded, as do the flight characteristics, the F-35 carries almost 25% more weight in fuel, and has lots of the other features that add weight the F-18 doesn't have.
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ReplyDeleteCompare the images in this two pages, this was before the Advanced SH. The SH is a LO airplane that combined wiht the Growler can destroy any air defense the first minute of war.
ReplyDeletehttp://defensa.pe/showthread.php?t=5674&page=35
http://defensa.pe/showthread.php?t=5674&page=36