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Do you really believe the F-35 will stand up to this?
A heavyweight fighter with extreme range, super cruise and impressive agility?
The USAF is facing a nightmare scenario. If they get what they say they want (the F-35) they're screwed...and because they're going to wait until Congress realizes its too costly to do anything, they're delaying the construction of what they actually need for the fight in the Pacific.
Jointness is awesome but it doesn't work across the 3 services. Each have unique needs. Share avionics/electronics and other systems but build different airframes.
Do it now, before the F-35 is killed and you're left with nothing.
I would gauge a modern combat aircraft’s capabilities by looking at the following features:
ReplyDelete1. Access to offboard space, ground, and air-based sensors, particularly a capable AEW/AWACS system with a well-trained crew and robust data links.
2. Effective sensor fusion to allow the pilot to make use of all this information, as well as information from onboard sensors.
3. An integrated EW system.
4. An AESA radar with a high level of reliability.
5. Training and doctrine necessary to make effective use of all this data and equipment. Plenty of flight hours for pilot flight training, too.
6. Powerful engines (ideally capable of supercruise), with a high mean time between overhaul and failures.
7. An airframe with low-observable characteristics.
8. A robust air-to-air refueling capability (equipment, readiness, training).
9. Sophisticated and reliable precision guided weaponry.
10. A robust software and hardware upgrade roadmap, to keep this plane effective in 5, 10, and 30 years.
11. Maintenance procedures in place to keep the plane operating with a high mission-capable rate. And of course equipment that has been designed with easy access for maintenance and easy access for electronic diagnostic tools, and ideally a sophisticated health-usage monitoring system (HUMS).
This list is not in any particular order of magnitude. And I’m sure I’ve missed quite a few other key items.
The J-20 offers one item from this list (#7). I’m not convinced that the PLAAF has any other items from this list, although China seems to be making some progress with #9.
It’s kind of fun to watch the world fixate on this one item (#7). Then again, I still enjoy air shows, too. Pugachev’s Cobra maneuver, for example. Drives the crowd wild. Relevance to modern combat? Zero
to be quite honest, you're judging the enemy by the way that we conduct war and thats a mistake. its also a mistake in evaluating aircraft. for example why is refueling necessary if you build a fighter that is longer ranged than the SU-27? on what basis are you claiming that our AESA is more powerful. on what basis are you saying that their weapons aren't accurate?
Deletethere are many ways to skin a cat and history tells us that the US was scared shitless when the SU-27 and family first arrived on the scene. something tells me that concern is mounting behind closed doors. i point no further than the comments by a Navy Admirral that i linked to earlier this week.
russia saying that they behind like 10 years so china is like 20 years . they still can't make their own engine for 4th gen fighter jets
ReplyDeletelink please. i keep hearing that but i want to see it for myself.
Deletehttp://topwar.ru/32451-eks-glavkom-vvs-v-rf-uzhe-razrabatyvayut-bespilotnik-shestogo-pokoleniya.html
Deleteim russian, if you can use google translate
that article isn't illustrative at all. quite honestly it just clouds the issue.
Deletethey don't have engines of their own china buys them from russia. russia sells 4++ engines and russia is not finished with 5th gen.
Deletejust take a look at their jet park most of them are mig 21
what are you talking about? the Chinese have the J-10, the J-15, the J-20 in development and the J-31 in development. additionally they have a bunch of J-11s and the number of modern aircraft that they have that are capable of operating in the pacific outnumber our own. additionally they have high speed anti-ship missiles that dwarf the range of our missiles. they're putting into service a new Type 52D warship that is Burke light. they have an LPD that matches what we have, armored vehicles that are more modern than what the Marine Corps fields, a tank that is not as advanced but close, yet they have more of them than we do and anti-tank missiles that rival our own. their artillery is longer ranged than what we have, they're still building subs and they're not faced with a sequester.
Deleteyou're smoking something fantastic to not be concerned.
you're just in pure idiot mode. coming to my blog, putting up useless links? get the fuck outta here.
Deletewow you can't even talk normal . i guess you are paranoid
Deletego back. reread your damn comments and thank God in heaven above that i wasted as much time with you as i did. one other thing. tell your masters that this little campaign to "change my mind" is doing nothing but pissing me off.
DeleteWell maybe this all go wrong but he has some good view about that engine issue Sol. It's well know that China had problems from a long time with developing of it own engines. In 90% cases they make copy of existing ones, mostly Russians designs, or just buy them from reds. Even they main "modern" fighter, J-10 is powered by Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN because they own Shenyang WS-10 engine was a little fail. In future they will probably instal they own engine in J-10 but for now, Russian engines are the best China can get. And AL-31FN is not even new engine, pretty old design. For now I'm not sure what engine J-20 use but it's probably another AL-31 version, maybe updated 31FM2 ? Of course it would be great for them to get plans of AL-41F1. For now China is way behind any main air powers in terms of homemade engine design, but they have money a lot of it. What they can't make, they will buy from Russia or stil and copy it. But 100% good home made engine ?... 20-40 years in the future.
Deletehis comments about engine tech in China is all backwards looking. the major jet engine makers have been doing business in China for well over a decade. the Chinese are no longer looking to import military aircraft engines. want to know why? because they don't need to. i truly believe they have the plans to our stuff.
Deleteadditionally they have the ability to reverse engineer everything that we build. so the answer is clear. the Chinese are playing a game. they can demonstrate the capability to build copies of our stuff now and risk the Congress getting crazy about tech transfers or they can lay low and wait until they no longer need the US consumer to support their industries.
if i was them i'd wait. and they are.
They will still buy tech, couple of engines here, couple of plans there. And indeed copy them, reverse tech, learn how bo build them faster and cheaper. They show that ability for the long, long time. Every plane in arsenal of PLAAF use original or copy of some engine, mostly Russian ones. Almost none home made designs. With all that military power, money and economic might they still don't know how to design modern stuff. It's a wider problem of whole China and fallout from Cultural Revolution.
DeleteBut true, why put a lot of money in trying of design something on pair with Pratt & Whitney F119 when you can steal it or just pay Russians for AL-41F-1 and copy, copy, copy...
Buying from other sources whole engines and tech transfer is the best option for China. They have money, there will be always someone who will sell it. And in some time they will learn how to make good engines in home.
Your sure that GIF is isn't photoshopped? This is China we're walking about, and a GIF is easier to fake than a real video.
ReplyDeleteit could easily be photoshopped. i'm just going by what a chinese military website says. they've been fairly accurate and haven't posted bullshit so i like them on this too.
DeleteToo bad 2014nukem went down hill with the rest of his comments because his list as his first posting was quite good, the problem was his conclusions which I feel are a bit outdated.
ReplyDeleteFor example, the J10 is in production and probably at least 300 are already in service so China has something as good as an F16 Block 50 plus these are brand new airframes with production rate is 38/40 a year. Not bad.
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20121029000007&cid=1101
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubid.140/pub_detail.asp
AS the J11, it is a bit more complicated since Sukoi delivered some Su27s plus some Su30MKK/2s which total about 200, give or take and then there's probably another 200-300 Chinese J11 in service or on order. I think it is safe to say that it has to be at least the equivalent of our used up F15s.Not sure about production rates or even if Chinese will keep making them once J20 line goes hot...which will be interesting to see,BTW.....Will they keep making 4th gen fighters J11s alongside J20 5th gen?!?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_People%27s_Liberation_Army_Air_Force#cite_note-AMR-3
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j11.asp
So the image of a old, antiquated massive onslaught of MiG19s or Mig21s is rapidly disappearing in the rear view mirror. Actually, in a interesting development, the Chinese aren't using their old MiG19s as target practice like USAF did with old F4s but there have been interesting articles about converting hundreds of old MiG19 as drones or decoys...could come in handy one day.
China has some catching up to do when it comes to AWACS, they have some in development but that is one area where they are behind, at least in pure numbers they don't come near the number of E3s and E2s US can muster. I haven't really heard anything about Chinese equivalent of J-STARS. I would say ISR is still probably a weak spot for China for maybe a few more years....
Tanking is a bit of a question mark, they obviously are working on it, J10s are reputed to be air refuel-able but as Sol mentioned, China, at this time probably doesn't really need it, their jets have enough range. Most of what they are looking at in terms of conflicts are close by, China doesn't need global reach like USAF, RAF or French Air Force.I just don't think it has a high priority.
When you look at air shows and what the Chinese put on display, yes, will a lot of these projects fly? probably not but there is some method to the madness, we just aren't privy to it. Lots of new engines for civil jets, fighters and helicopters are in the works, they have A LOT OF MONEY and man power so they can catch up really quick.
As a side note, China has its own needs and requirements and they are more and more filling them with indigenous products, not just 100% copies. Just in the past week, news has been coming out, that the Chinese could be working on a C130 like V22 capable bird. Just rumors but the Chinese seem very interested/concerned about V22/Marines so they are looking at their own capability, maybe just taking it a step further, we will see if it is true....this is one area where I think our Western mentality will come back to bite us, we think they can't do it because we don't/can't or it's not in our needs so China doesn't need it! Maybe they don't need a V22, maybe its' too small so they go straight to C130 size, this is what scares me the most, China is far more capable than we think and are not afraid to think outside the box and fight us asymmetrically.
Last, training and exercises like Red Flag are super important, this is the part most difficult to judge since China doesn't say much, as far as I know, China has a similar system/grounds as Red Flag but not official. Also their ground forces seem to have something very similar to our JRTC/NTC....
I would say give China another couple of years (by 2016-2020) and they will have a first class well balanced military....just my 2 cents.
This F35 trashing has to stop - I find myself coming to this blog less and less - same shit different day. I know.. my choice not to read it, blah blah...
ReplyDeleteSo even if this chicomm propaganda is true, what has a better chance to zap it with a BVR missile before this airshow cicus stunt even can be performed? An F-35 or a cobbled together "super" hornet with external FAST pack humps and a bunch of "stealth" pods hanging all over it? The F-35 is close (if not better) than a F-16 with equal fuel fractions and more a2a weapons. The cobbled together hornet? not so much.
See elements of power blog....
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DeleteHouston 125.
Deleteyes it is your choice to carry your ass somewhere else. my blog. my rules. my agenda. my thoughts. start your own and post your own stuff but trust me. i won't shed one tear if you go somewhere else.
Gul Archer.
run from the likes of you? not hardly. i'd simply pull my Glock 19 loaded with Golden Sabers from my waist, shoot you in the face with the Golden Sabers its filled with, empty the magazine so i wouldn't have to worry about you showing up in court or being able to tell your side of the story...and then if your wife looks decent i'd fuck her brains out while she thanked me for showing her what a real man is....so no. i wouldn't run. i wouldn't cry to law enforcement. i'd just take care of business and post pics on the internet.
David.
you do know you just posted your last don't you. when i'm away from the internet it might last a few minutes but when i get back anything you've written will be erased forverer. you can play the Sferrin role by thinking you can limp back in the door after a few days or week but i won't forget.
Sol hasn't been a basher of the F35, but he has been a basher of the cost of it. And it is a factor that nobody who has posted in this thread who still supports the F35 has addressed...ever. They are still partying like it's 1999.
DeleteThere has been a sea change in how this country views national defense, both in terms of whether we should become entangled in foreign adventures AND whether we should pay for it. The defense budget has been nearly sacrosanct since the early 1950's. But that changed with the Sequester. It opened up, for both political parties, opportunities to question whether we should or are even able to be the world's only superpower. Just five years ago, this was unthinkable, yet now it is routine. And for the most part, the answer people keep coming up with is, "no".
The service chiefs haven't realized it, the defense contractors haven't realized it, a huge portion of the blogosphere hasn't realized it yet, but smaller defense budgets via the Sequester AND an unwillingness by the American public to involve ourselves in foreign entanglements spell out the future: the good times are over.
Yes, our defense budget is huge, but a lot of that is personnel costs, tricare, veterans benefits, pay increases during OEF/OIF, etc. There are no longer any blank checks being floated to the services any more.
And what are the service chiefs offering as ways to save money? cutting personnel and BRAC.
The Navy is talking about reducing the number of carriers down to below 9. The Army is talking about reducing the total personnel below 400,000. The Air Forces wants to retire more teen-series fighters and A-10s. Amos wants to turn the USMC into a slightly beefier version of the Royal Marines. They don't get it. Once the services dump all those people, the service will NEVER, EVER get them back.
what the fuck good is the US Navy with 200 ships and 7 carriers?
what the fuck good is a US Army with 380,000 men?
what the fuck good is a USAF with 1500 fighters?
what the fuck good is a USMC that can only conduct commando raids and evacuate US citizens?
Because the question once we go down to those force sizes, we have to honestly ask whether the US can actually perform the missions we assign it. Can we reinforce South Korea? Can we defend Taiwan? Can we deploy to take out Iran?
Once we open up the Pandora's box of 'why do we need forces of this size', we release the evil spirits of "why do we even need forces?"
"Why do we need to protect Taiwan or the Philippines?"
"Why do we need to protect Israel?"
"why should we keep the Straights of Hormuz open?" and eventually
"Why do we need anything besides a military just big enough to protect the USA?"
and then you will see an explosion of international arms races because because people will realize the US cannot impose its will any longer so they no longer have to worry about whether they can invade their neighbor. The only countries that will be safe are the ones with nukes which means you will see widespread nuke races.
So, ask yourselves, do you want the F35 so much that you are willing to see a US Military so anemic that it can't project force abroad? what good will the F35 be then? Why would it even be worth projecting force abroad if we don't have the forces big enough to do perform the mission?
so, I ask the delusional schmucks here who don't get it yet, is the F35 that good that it is worth trashing US force sizes?
Or maybe, just maybe, we need to start looking at an 80% solution instead of the F35 so we can afford to keep forces large enough to actually perform the missions we expect of it?
OUTSTANDING. your comment just got turned into a post.
DeleteThe problem is sequestration, not F-35.
DeleteIt looks like US flogging itself to "atone its sins", because no one else can destroy US except US itself.
Largest bully in school does not take a diet just to lose muscles and be beaten.
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ReplyDeleteQuick comment. Not sure I see any particular agility in this video clip. It looks like that the camera was following the turn, exaggerating the whole thing. If real, the G-forces would be off the scale and no fighter could survive that.
ReplyDeleteWell this conversation took a sharp left turn...
ReplyDeleteExcellent comment Paralus.
ReplyDeleteWe need to keep a well balanced and diversified force. The idea of an F35 being used to bomb some goat herder in Afghanistan is ridiculous but that's what we are going to have to use when we have a force of F35s instead of cheaper A10s. It is interesting to note that the French used their Rafales in Mali but already have ordered some Predators, wonder why? maybe using such a sophisticated and expensive fighter to drop one JDAM became rapidly prohibitive, used up valuable airframe/engine life plus that Predator probably can stay on target a lot longer.....
Very interesting to note how American public has reacted to Syrian news and possibility of war, it was pretty negative. First time I also noticed so many people looking and commenting at the costs of war, it seems that some on the blog still think this is the 80s....US DoD budget is not sacrosanct anymore, if you don't believe in being the world's police, than why spend so much on being the world's police?
J-20 is large, its stealth forward stealth is going to be ruined by the canards, and I don't really believe anything that comes from chinese sites like this GiF. China isn't known for honesty. And is known for trying to play itself up at whatever cost.
ReplyDeleteHonestly I think the F-35 would win any encounter with this plane, we don't even need the F-22 except for the Pak-Fa.
The F-35 will detect the J-20 first, and in addition to superior electronics and targeting will have more tools than a swiss army knife to screw with the enemy, all before he even knows where the F-35 is. Finding it just became that much tougher, mean time J-20 is dead.
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