Now this is an interesting development.
The US Marine Corps has a widely published "aviation neck-down campaign" that seeks to limit the number of aircraft in service. Additionally it seeks to limit the different types of engines in use.
Will this make the KC-130 obsolete in Marine Corps service? Operationally it follows behind the MEU like a Roman Camp Follower, using available land bases and is sometimes not available when crisis hits.
Are we seeing the beginning of the end of the Mighty Herc in Marine Green?
No we're not seeing that. The V-22 can carry 20,000lbs internally. The KC-130J can offload about 80,000lbs. The two aircraft are of two widely different classes with the C-130J able to carry over 3 times the load, further, and faster. They also cost about the same. It would be beyond idiotic trying to replace the C-130J with the V-22.
ReplyDeletenot if the C130 can't be where the MEU is. availability trumps utility. what good is 1million gallons if it ain't where you need it?
Deleteanother thing. if this isn't at least being contemplated then why even do it? the MV-22 is the primary people mover for the MEU. if thought hasn't gone into possibly replacing a few C130s with this plane then the experiment is a serious waste of money. this is the Marine Corps not Air Force or Army.
Deleteif it can't go aboard ship its soon to be phased out of Marine service.
They've probably contemplated it but don't want to do it just yet. The C130s do provide significantly increased capacity and time on station when they are available, so they'll still try to keep them available for use. Its just that by having the ability to use the KV-22, they are much less tied down and more mobile. The KV-22 allows then to get more fuel up now esp in cases where it isn't easy to get C130s on station. I imagine that the navy will also use the KV-22 capability for their carrier aviation as well.
DeleteThe V-22 is an over priced replacement for the CH-46. It can't replace the C-130J. The performance differential is greater than comparing the A-4 and FB-111. The problem isn't that the KC-130J isn't a cost effective aircraft but that the V-22 isn't.
ReplyDeleteYou don't replace a four engined medium theater level transport with a helicopter replacement. For the same dollars the C-130J can carry three times the load further and faster. Three V-22's aren't as effective as one C-130J in many roles and would cost more than three times as much to purchase and operate.
If you want to argue that the Corps shouldn't operate any aircraft than can't serve aboard ship that's your privilege. Do most Corps aircraft normally operate aboard ship or are the vast majority operating from land the majority of the time? Should the Navy get rid of maritime patrol aircraft because they can't operate from carriers? Should the Corps only operate UAV's that can recover at sea? A service that can operate from the sea shouldn't translate that into only operating from the sea. Frankly this whole line of thinking created the all STOVL tactical fighter force fantasy.
Sol weren't arguing against the V-22 as being too expensive for the Corps recently and now you want to expand the numbers? Exactly why do you want more of them; moreover, why replace newly built far more capable aircraft with them?
To answer your other question if the MEU is operating out of range of a KC-130J, out of range of USN carriers, and out of range of any USAF tankers then exactly where is it operating? Let's, however, pretend such an operational area exists on planet Earth and maybe a V-22 carrying up to 20,000lbs of offload fuel might be more useful than establishing a forward refueling area ashore. Now why should this extremely limited scenario cause one to replace all the useful and cost effective C-130J's with an aircraft with 1/3rd the capability but the same cost?
theater transport my ass.
Deletethe Marine Corps doesn't give a damn about moving cargo by herc. what it does care about is having all aircraft capable of operating off a big deck. additionally why would the US Navy use F-18s to buddy refuel???? by your way of thinking they should simply buy hercs and have them follow around the carriers using land bases.
additionally yes, 99 percent of Marine aircraft operate off decks.
stop thinking Army...worse stop thinking the Marine Corps is a little US Army. if you can't wrap your head around why the fuck the Marine Corps is different then you need to find another website.
otherwise you're just being idiotic.
The C130 is reliant on land bases and reasonably close land bases at that. The MV-22 can and does land on the vast majority of US navy ships. There are plenty of reasons that organic mobile refueling is very valuable. The Navy does not and cannot rely on USAF tankers, esp when the nearest US base can be upwards of 5-6 hours away. USAF tankers are designed for ferry missions and close loiter missions. Sending a USAF tanker 6-8 hours away and then expecting it to be able to service the area is foolhardy at best. It will have used up half it fuel to get there. Which means that if you want to rely on USAF or C-130 tankers, you have to divert resources to take a local base, defend a local base, resupply a local base, etc. That's a lot of resources. For a MEU or carrier battle group, having a KV-22 package on hand allows refueling in the air where ever the group is. It can loiter at 10k feet above the group supplying all the refuel need and be quickly and easily replaced when it runs out of fuel.
DeleteAnd the V-22 isn't a helicopter replacement. It has significantly faster speed allowing it to get somewhere in half the time, it has significantly better range, allowing it to get to someplace 30-40% farther away, and it has significantly more flexibility.
The marines don't like the V-22 just because it is replacing the CH-46, they like it because it is allowing a significant increase in capabilities, of which the KV-22 is just one example.
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ReplyDeletei don't know why people think they can come to my blog, be disrespectful to me and then think that i have to take it. you're done. no argument. no tears. just carry your ass.
DeleteAs a piece of tech MV22 is awesome, but I don't think it is a good buy as a helo replacement. The only customer who would find a ready supply of them useful is the UK. It would be a great ASaC/AEW platform, tanker, and COD platform for CVF, but it is too expensive for us. And the helicopters we have can do 2 of those 3 jobs at a push anyway.
ReplyDeleteThe C-130s were instrumental in supplying the GCE during OIF-1. The combat engineers would drop a stretch of light poles along a highway set up some quick signalling gear and the C-130 would land, off load, about face and go right back up. It was a brilliant plan setup by Gens Mattis and Conway that enabled the MEF to still be ready to push when the Army was out of gas.
ReplyDeletewait you're only telling half the story. the other half of that cluster was the continuous drive. we were barely mechanized and still we outran our supply lines, pushed through opposition leaving stragglers in our wake that should have been assaulted and taken out and when a particular Commander decided that it was better to clean up our lines before the final assault, Mattis did the only thing that I consider questionable in his entire career, he relieved the guy while he was working to keep us alive.
Deleteit wasn't all sunshine and roses and that assault isn't sung about with praise in annals of the Marine Corps history.
But my point does remain that the C-130 were excellent at providing logistical support to the GCE.
DeleteI just see this as yet another example of us moving towards a Sea going 101st with all the limitations that implies. Dropping off 100 Marines 300nm from the amphibious shipping or the air stations seems like another Mayaguez incident waiting to happen.
I would not be surprised of the USMC uses the V-22 in the KV-22 role. That would increase the range of V-22's and CH-53K's.
ReplyDeleteYou also forgot the Harvest Hawk role of the C130. No way a V22 can perform that mission.
ReplyDeleteHarvest Hawk is the flashiest, most insane mission set the Marine Corps has ever come up with. Think about it. We have all these fighters, attack planes and attack helicopters and what do we do?
DeleteWE LOAD UP ONE OF OUR C-130s WITH ROCKETS AND EXPECT IT TO LOITER OVER A BATTLE AREA DROPPING A FEW BOMBS, MISSILES, ETC INSTEAD OF TAKING CONVOYS OFF THE ROADS BY DELIVERING SUPPLIES TO EXPOSED OUTPOSTS!!!!!
its such a stupid idea that i can't see straight. we need better logistics so we buy Kaman UAV helicopters to deliver supplies but at the same time we turn a cargo plane into an attacker!
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ReplyDelete