It's easy to hate. Especially after a tragedy like this.
But just remember... The police and military teams that took these guys out were likely muslim. The emergency responders that gave care to the injured were likely muslim. Many of those shot, including defenseless women and children, were muslim.
Psychotic cowards are just that, no matter the religion, race, or color. Whether they are shooting up a mall in Kenya or a school in Columbine or Sandy Hook.
Not to get all left-wing sappy on you, Sol, but Fred Rogers said it best.
Kenya is 83% Christian, 11.2% Islamic, 2.4% classified as no religion, 1.7% as indigenous and 1.7% as other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kenya) so in all odds those responders were not Muslim, although some possibly were, very few though more than likely.
this is not to disagree with your basic point though... there are bad people in this world, unfortunately, and they can cause tremendous damage thanks impart to the very weapons we have created to protect ourselves from them as they are sometimes so difficult to distinguish from normal.
Just because there were Germain-Americans in the US forces would you forgive the Nazi's their concentration camps? The nazi's tried to exterminate the the Jews in Europe and the muslim fanatics are trying to exterminate the Christians in the Middle East.
Al qaeda and their minions may be less efficient than the nazi's but they are proving more effective.
Well, Doug, I get what you are trying to say but until I hear global condemnation from the Muslim community, I remain skeptical. The one thing all these acts of violence have in common is Islam. These terrorists are not purporting to act in the name of a cause, they target people that are innocents (children! really, c'mon.) and they justify their actions in the name of Allah. If a Christian or Jewish-informed group perpetuated such acts of terror and violence, the condemnation would be total and immediate from Religious leaders of all denominations and sects. (well maybe not the nut-jobs at the Westboro Baptist Church.) The global response would be overwhelming and loudly public. If this is ever going to stop in a non-violent way, then only the Muslim community can stop it. There must be immediate and overwhelming condemnation of every act of violence by every major Islamic authority. Peace and tolerance must be preached in every major Islamic jurisdiction. Acts of terror for any reason must be condemned in the most strident tones and tolerance within and without Islam must be preached. Do you see that happening anytime soon? The average Muslim might be a peaceful and peace-loving but until their religion as a whole rejects terrorism and violence then the more extreme elements will feel justification and indeed motivation for their heinous crimes. Muslims everywhere need to take care of this before the western world gets to the breaking point and takes care of it for them. That won't be pretty.
The trouble is, Islam is such a fragmented religion that the actions of one group do not necessarily reflect the views of another. There is no "Pope" equivalent, and most of the individual factions hate each other just as much as hate jews or christians. Just look at the Sunnis, Shiites, etc. Getting the Muslim religious leaders together in condemning actions like this would be like convincing Pope Francis to offer a joint statement with Protestant, Anglican, Presbyterian, and maybe even Mormon leaders. It's not going to happen.
Yes, the Quran has some pretty nasty stuff in it. But so do the Old and New Testament. Anybody who uses religion to justify violence is only proving how ignorant and evil they themselves are.
I'm not saying that there isn't any correlation, there obviously is. But correlation does not equal causality. Many religious sects prey upon the uneducated and desperate, and there are a lot of uneducated and desperate people in the Middle-East and Africa.
It is totally inappropriate and false to try equate the New Testament message of peace with the islamic dogma of war and subjugation of nonbelievers. Muslims divide the world into Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) vs Dar al-Harb (House of war)
There is no need for the Pope to issue a joint statement for Protestants, Anglicans and Presbyterians to refrain from violence (as a group.) There is a tremendous need for some one to explain it to muslim fanatics.
I stopped by Monday and saw more rent-a-cops on duty. I noticed one security guy patrolling with a plainclothes cop who had the earwhig.
The only way to stop an attack like Westgate or Mumbai is to have well-trained forces on site or less than five minutes away. At the Mall of America, it has less a small Bloomington Police dept office and dozens of security officers. While the cops are armed, the only weapons the security officers have is a collapsible baton and mace. The Security officers are more to keep the local hoodrats from from congregating and starting riots.
The Police station on site is really just some interview rooms and office space. It might have ARs or shotguns locked up, but if the terrorists are smart, they'll hit that office with a bomb first.
There need to be officers, on site, with ARs already in hand in Malls, etc. if they want to be able to respond to an attack immediately. Unfortunately, it is a PR nightmare for those Malls because then they are admitting there is a security risk. But until something bad happens, like when airports in Europe were hit by Palestinian terrorists in the 80's and resulted in armed police officers being on site, then it won't happen.
surely manned airport style scanners for people coming in, backed up by a security room and central response force would be enough? surely such security at the entrance would just allow them to say this is a safe area - spin the PR that way? perhaps backed up by a Gun check station for those who carry them (not an issue in UK, but imagine in US, you'd want somewhere like it - the clever malls will hire ex army technicians and offer 'gun servicing' when you leave it with them; ok most can hopefully service their weapons themselves, but for some it might be a real benefit)
As for deliveries, no unscheduled deliveries and all off loads must be offloaded into a waiting area, inspected and then sent to stores - be quick, be efficient, be thorough and no one will complain.
The Mall owners are going to get sued into oblivion if an attacks hits that place. So will the Bloomington Police dept. for not having enough officers on scene.
The FBI office is in downtown Minneapolis. Other local SWAT teams are similar distance and it would take time for them to respond. They would likely take predictable routes to the MoA.
All it would take is a gunman posted on each route and the major freeways would all be turned into parking lots. Which means any response time could be extended by tens of minutes.
About the scanners- I don't doubt that we will probably see them but I thought that the issue wasn't that weapons were snuck into the mall but rather that they literally "stormed" as in assaulted the place, though its still early and we don't have an AAR of all that happened and that may just be a "journalist"'s hyperbole, that was the impression that I was under and a checkpoint with a scanner and buddy team of TSA types won't stop shit if thats what is comin at them.
What also needs to be pointed out in response to Doug is that Kenya is predominately Christian. Some of the first responders were undoubtedly Muslims... but no chance that a majority were. So the insinuation that all the rescuers and security forces were "good" Muslims rushing in to help out is wildly inaccurate.
It's pretty obvious that the attackers were Muslims and were targeting non-Muslims. I think that's the main issue here.
I hated Islam for a while until I made one good Muslim friend. The only thing that generally keeps me from hating the whole posse is to remember that Islamic based violence often makes Muslims victims of other Muslims just as well. Two examples: just looking at the Arab Spring in Syria (Muslims are gassing other Muslims) as well as the extremely oppressive history of the Iranian regime (by the way if you haven't read Persepolis it is an eye opener) it becomes pretty clear that radical Islam seems to always kill and oppress other Muslims and treat them as infidels.
In spite of all this, I too feel like I have to fight it hard sometimes just the same, especially after incidents like this shopping mall attack where what was being done is pretty black and white.
I think we should give that religion a pass given their excellent record with women's rights and this: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-04-04/world/35451705_1_bacha-bazi-afghans-pashtun
Ignorance and stupidity will kill us all. Stereotyping a world religion by referencing certain countries that still live in the Middle Ages. I'll bet you're proud of that post
When we hate an entire sub-group of the global population because they believe in a different prophet of the sky god that [some of us] we do, we diminish who we are. Make no mistake, these killers should be eradicated with extreme prejudice and violence but take religion out of the equation. They're just thugs
OK, I'm getting sick of all the Muslim apologists chiming in. These were not random violent nut-jobs that decided to use Islam as a justification for their violence. This was the work of al-Shabaab which uses Mosques to actively recruit new members to jihad. As to your point Doug, its true that there isn't one over-arching authority that speaks for Christians or Jews but that is exactly my previous point! There doesn't have to be! Any act of terror or violence in the name of Christianity or Judaism would evoke prompt condemnation from all the different heads of religious organizations. Just because the Muslim world is so fractured shouldn't matter at all. Terror and violence are terror and violence but I have yet to hear from ONE established Muslim authority. Any would be welcome and perhaps then pressure could build from there to other areas of the Muslim world to renounce violence as a tool. Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela all evoked non-violence as a tool and in the end it was more effective and longer lasting. I am betting neither of those worthies spent their formative years in a church, temple or mosque that preached violence and jihad! Yet, we hear daily of Imams and Mosques all over the world that preach violence and justify the slaughter of innocents! If a Christian preacher does this, they are quickly condemned and marginalized by the greater community at large. I don't see this happening in the Muslim world. Ever. As a matter of note, there are at last count 79 organizations that have been listed as terrorists. Of those, all but 6 are Islamic in nature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations If a modern crusade is to be avoided, the Muslim world needs to get its shit together. It isn't enough to hear from our Muslim neighbors ( I have a few on my street ) about how these groups don't represent the Muslim world. The problem is that they DO represent some of the problems of the Muslim world especially as they interact with the rest of the western world. As I said before above: Muslims everywhere need to take care of this before the western world gets to the breaking point and takes care of it for them. That won't be pretty. Now on to all you losers that want mall security to look like SWAT. This is the fucking U. S. of A. and by damn I am not going to be cowed into a false sense of fear by a bunch of Islamic terrorists half a world away. Yes, it could happen here. It probably will happen here. So effen what! My chances of getting killed in some mall are an order of magnitude less than getting killed by some teenager texting in a car on my way to the mall. Its a straw-man argument for more militarization of our nation. Its never going to be 100% safe if you want to live in a free society. I hear North Korea doesn't have much terrorist activity either.
It's easy to hate. Especially after a tragedy like this.
ReplyDeleteBut just remember... The police and military teams that took these guys out were likely muslim. The emergency responders that gave care to the injured were likely muslim. Many of those shot, including defenseless women and children, were muslim.
Psychotic cowards are just that, no matter the religion, race, or color. Whether they are shooting up a mall in Kenya or a school in Columbine or Sandy Hook.
Not to get all left-wing sappy on you, Sol, but Fred Rogers said it best.
http://youtu.be/-LGHtc_D328
Kenya is 83% Christian, 11.2% Islamic, 2.4% classified as no religion, 1.7% as indigenous and 1.7% as other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kenya) so in all odds those responders were not Muslim, although some possibly were, very few though more than likely.
Deletethis is not to disagree with your basic point though... there are bad people in this world, unfortunately, and they can cause tremendous damage thanks impart to the very weapons we have created to protect ourselves from them as they are sometimes so difficult to distinguish from normal.
this is also worth a read on the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Africa)
DeleteJust because there were Germain-Americans in the US forces would you forgive the Nazi's their concentration camps? The nazi's tried to exterminate the the Jews in Europe and the muslim fanatics are trying to exterminate the Christians in the Middle East.
ReplyDeleteAl qaeda and their minions may be less efficient than the nazi's but they are proving more effective.
Well, Doug,
ReplyDeleteI get what you are trying to say but until I hear global condemnation from the Muslim community, I remain skeptical. The one thing all these acts of violence have in common is Islam. These terrorists are not purporting to act in the name of a cause, they target people that are innocents (children! really, c'mon.) and they justify their actions in the name of Allah. If a Christian or Jewish-informed group perpetuated such acts of terror and violence, the condemnation would be total and immediate from Religious leaders of all denominations and sects. (well maybe not the nut-jobs at the Westboro Baptist Church.) The global response would be overwhelming and loudly public.
If this is ever going to stop in a non-violent way, then only the Muslim community can stop it. There must be immediate and overwhelming condemnation of every act of violence by every major Islamic authority. Peace and tolerance must be preached in every major Islamic jurisdiction. Acts of terror for any reason must be condemned in the most strident tones and tolerance within and without Islam must be preached.
Do you see that happening anytime soon? The average Muslim might be a peaceful and peace-loving but until their religion as a whole rejects terrorism and violence then the more extreme elements will feel justification and indeed motivation for their heinous crimes. Muslims everywhere need to take care of this before the western world gets to the breaking point and takes care of it for them. That won't be pretty.
The trouble is, Islam is such a fragmented religion that the actions of one group do not necessarily reflect the views of another. There is no "Pope" equivalent, and most of the individual factions hate each other just as much as hate jews or christians. Just look at the Sunnis, Shiites, etc. Getting the Muslim religious leaders together in condemning actions like this would be like convincing Pope Francis to offer a joint statement with Protestant, Anglican, Presbyterian, and maybe even Mormon leaders. It's not going to happen.
DeleteYes, the Quran has some pretty nasty stuff in it. But so do the Old and New Testament. Anybody who uses religion to justify violence is only proving how ignorant and evil they themselves are.
I'm not saying that there isn't any correlation, there obviously is. But correlation does not equal causality. Many religious sects prey upon the uneducated and desperate, and there are a lot of uneducated and desperate people in the Middle-East and Africa.
It is totally inappropriate and false to try equate the New Testament message of peace with the islamic dogma of war and subjugation of nonbelievers. Muslims divide the world into Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) vs Dar al-Harb (House of war)
DeleteThere is no need for the Pope to issue a joint statement for Protestants, Anglicans and Presbyterians to refrain from violence (as a group.) There is a tremendous need for some one to explain it to muslim fanatics.
Mall of America stepped up security
ReplyDeletehttp://www.businessweek.com/ap/2013-09-25/mall-of-america-tightens-security
I stopped by Monday and saw more rent-a-cops on duty. I noticed one security guy patrolling with a plainclothes cop who had the earwhig.
The only way to stop an attack like Westgate or Mumbai is to have well-trained forces on site or less than five minutes away. At the Mall of America, it has less a small Bloomington Police dept office and dozens of security officers. While the cops are armed, the only weapons the security officers have is a collapsible baton and mace. The Security officers are more to keep the local hoodrats from from congregating and starting riots.
The Police station on site is really just some interview rooms and office space. It might have ARs or shotguns locked up, but if the terrorists are smart, they'll hit that office with a bomb first.
There need to be officers, on site, with ARs already in hand in Malls, etc. if they want to be able to respond to an attack immediately. Unfortunately, it is a PR nightmare for those Malls because then they are admitting there is a security risk. But until something bad happens, like when airports in Europe were hit by Palestinian terrorists in the 80's and resulted in armed police officers being on site, then it won't happen.
surely manned airport style scanners for people coming in, backed up by a security room and central response force would be enough? surely such security at the entrance would just allow them to say this is a safe area - spin the PR that way? perhaps backed up by a Gun check station for those who carry them (not an issue in UK, but imagine in US, you'd want somewhere like it - the clever malls will hire ex army technicians and offer 'gun servicing' when you leave it with them; ok most can hopefully service their weapons themselves, but for some it might be a real benefit)
DeleteAs for deliveries, no unscheduled deliveries and all off loads must be offloaded into a waiting area, inspected and then sent to stores - be quick, be efficient, be thorough and no one will complain.
The Mall owners are going to get sued into oblivion if an attacks hits that place. So will the Bloomington Police dept. for not having enough officers on scene.
DeleteThe FBI office is in downtown Minneapolis. Other local SWAT teams are similar distance and it would take time for them to respond. They would likely take predictable routes to the MoA.
All it would take is a gunman posted on each route and the major freeways would all be turned into parking lots. Which means any response time could be extended by tens of minutes.
About the scanners- I don't doubt that we will probably see them but I thought that the issue wasn't that weapons were snuck into the mall but rather that they literally "stormed" as in assaulted the place, though its still early and we don't have an AAR of all that happened and that may just be a "journalist"'s hyperbole, that was the impression that I was under and a checkpoint with a scanner and buddy team of TSA types won't stop shit if thats what is comin at them.
DeleteWhat also needs to be pointed out in response to Doug is that Kenya is predominately Christian. Some of the first responders were undoubtedly Muslims... but no chance that a majority were. So the insinuation that all the rescuers and security forces were "good" Muslims rushing in to help out is wildly inaccurate.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry about that, but my point is just the same.
DeleteCondemning all Muslims for terrorist actions like this is akin to condemning all Catholics because of shit the IRA did.
It's pretty obvious that the attackers were Muslims and were targeting non-Muslims. I think that's the main issue here.
ReplyDeleteI hated Islam for a while until I made one good Muslim friend. The only thing that generally keeps me from hating the whole posse is to remember that Islamic based violence often makes Muslims victims of other Muslims just as well. Two examples: just looking at the Arab Spring in Syria (Muslims are gassing other Muslims) as well as the extremely oppressive history of the Iranian regime (by the way if you haven't read Persepolis it is an eye opener) it becomes pretty clear that radical Islam seems to always kill and oppress other Muslims and treat them as infidels.
In spite of all this, I too feel like I have to fight it hard sometimes just the same, especially after incidents like this shopping mall attack where what was being done is pretty black and white.
I think we should give that religion a pass given their excellent record with women's rights and this: http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-04-04/world/35451705_1_bacha-bazi-afghans-pashtun
ReplyDeleteIgnorance and stupidity will kill us all. Stereotyping a world religion by referencing certain countries that still live in the Middle Ages. I'll bet you're proud of that post
DeleteIts not easy to hate an entire religion, especially Islam. It's psychotic and stupid. Hayya 'ala khayr al amal
ReplyDeletesee the above Polaris.
DeleteWhen we hate an entire sub-group of the global population because they believe in a different prophet of the sky god that [some of us] we do, we diminish who we are. Make no mistake, these killers should be eradicated with extreme prejudice and violence but take religion out of the equation. They're just thugs
DeleteWithout Islam, people like that would find some other excuse to kill innocent people.
ReplyDeleteOK,
ReplyDeleteI'm getting sick of all the Muslim apologists chiming in. These were not random violent nut-jobs that decided to use Islam as a justification for their violence. This was the work of al-Shabaab which uses Mosques to actively recruit new members to jihad. As to your point Doug, its true that there isn't one over-arching authority that speaks for Christians or Jews but that is exactly my previous point! There doesn't have to be! Any act of terror or violence in the name of Christianity or Judaism would evoke prompt condemnation from all the different heads of religious organizations. Just because the Muslim world is so fractured shouldn't matter at all. Terror and violence are terror and violence but I have yet to hear from ONE established Muslim authority. Any would be welcome and perhaps then pressure could build from there to other areas of the Muslim world to renounce violence as a tool. Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela all evoked non-violence as a tool and in the end it was more effective and longer lasting. I am betting neither of those worthies spent their formative years in a church, temple or mosque that preached violence and jihad! Yet, we hear daily of Imams and Mosques all over the world that preach violence and justify the slaughter of innocents! If a Christian preacher does this, they are quickly condemned and marginalized by the greater community at large. I don't see this happening in the Muslim world. Ever.
As a matter of note, there are at last count 79 organizations that have been listed as terrorists. Of those, all but 6 are Islamic in nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations
If a modern crusade is to be avoided, the Muslim world needs to get its shit together. It isn't enough to hear from our Muslim neighbors ( I have a few on my street ) about how these groups don't represent the Muslim world. The problem is that they DO represent some of the problems of the Muslim world especially as they interact with the rest of the western world. As I said before above: Muslims everywhere need to take care of this before the western world gets to the breaking point and takes care of it for them. That won't be pretty.
Now on to all you losers that want mall security to look like SWAT. This is the fucking U. S. of A. and by damn I am not going to be cowed into a false sense of fear by a bunch of Islamic terrorists half a world away. Yes, it could happen here. It probably will happen here. So effen what! My chances of getting killed in some mall are an order of magnitude less than getting killed by some teenager texting in a car on my way to the mall. Its a straw-man argument for more militarization of our nation. Its never going to be 100% safe if you want to live in a free society. I hear North Korea doesn't have much terrorist activity either.
thank you! you get it!
Delete