The above video is sweeping the internet like wildfire.
It shows some young ladies open carrying in a mall.
Many are saying that the LEO was being rude and was power hungry.
They're wrong.
I'm not a big fan of Law Enforcement. Most of the time when you need them they're not around and they are more revenue generators than law enforcers. But this open carry movement is silly.
Why shouldn't an open carry person expect to have to provide ID to LEOs? They should expect every time they go out in public. They should welcome the stops. They should be polite, and understand that the choice they made put them into the situation.
First. Open carry is tactically STUPID! Most of the people I see open carrying are doing so with Kydex Holsters. They have at best a retention screw. Many times they don't even have that. Remember the 21 foot rule? Well if you're out in public, shopping, buying coffee etc...then by the nature of public places you're allowing someone inside your 21 foot reaction circle! Next. Without a level 3 holster you're allowing yourself to be a weapon snatch victim. Have you ever seen videos of California Prisoners practicing weapon take-aways in the courtyard? I have. An attack from one of those guys will be violent, swift and more than likely against an unaware person. Most of these people in the vids have coffee, shopping bags etc. Weapon retention with empty hands is hard enough without being on a shopping spree.
And last. What happens if Gun Guys win this fight and open carry is allowed without confrontation by police? What if we get to the point where open carriers are not having to provide ID so a background check can be run? Then we'll have gang bangers and other criminals open carrying and the police not doing checks because they'll be labeled as racist!
Open carry is tactically stupid, will lead to unintended consequences and doesn't provide the safeguards that concealed carry permits provide to the public that unauthorized persons aren't carrying weapons.
Its time for GUN PEOPLE to get smart and think about the consequences of their actions.
I have a CCW and carry whenever I can. Why? B/c if anything ever happens, I am able to respond with my training or not become a victim to some idiot. That being said, I enjoy CCW just like I don't wear moto shirts or sport a high and tight b/c I don't want to be singled out as a target. All open carry does is identify you as either a threat to be eliminated or as a target for robbery so some jackwagon can get a free gun. Sol, you hit the nail on the head on retention. All it is going to take is 2 seconds and that gun is taken off these open carry nuts and will most likely be used against them. Let's not even get started on how little to no training most of these people have in shoot/don't shoot situations or how to engage targets in crowds let alone marksmanship.
ReplyDeletewe're in the exact same camp Robert! thanks!
DeleteYeah ditto, the open carry people are completely missing the point.
DeleteAlso they are in the notorious anti-gun, police state of Oklahoma.
DeleteWent to a on base gun range a couple of months ago and watch some civilians shoot and god almighty most of them were awful at everything. Accuracy, weapons safety, reload drills, and muzzle awareness became non-existent during any kind of stoppage.
spot on. i look at some of the people that open carry and wonder if they do any type of training to handle the stress of a confrontation.
Deletea beer belly, 100 pounds overweight, diabetes and heart condition mixed with the expectation of dealing with the adrenalin dump that comes from fighting for your life will kill them if the bad guys don't. add to it the people that actually go to the range are a distinct minority and then mix in with the ones that do shoot often pickup training scars because they're doing it all wrong (but believe they're right) and you have a recipe for failure.
the worst thing that ever happened to the gunrights movement was one term. SHEEPDOG.
Sol,
ReplyDeleteIn the interest of full disclosure, I'm a cop. I agree with you about the open carry crowd. If someone complains, then you should expect a visit from the cops. And we usually ID everyone when we are investigating a possible violation of the law. In this case, Disorderly Conduct might fit. I'm not saying that I'd charge anyone, necessarily, but it fits in this State (NH). "Disrupting the orderly course of business." But I also think that the guy with the AR was a little much. That drew more attention then the girls did. Also, the cop doing the interacting looked to be in way over his head. Like he couldn't figure out what he was supposed to do about the girls carrying the guns. "That's what I'm trying to figure out," he kept saying. Well, figure it out and handle it, guy. And get used to it. I've seen other videos where some open carry guys are trying to get attention, and then when they do, they get upset. Then the cop schools them on the law, and what he is doing, and why it's justified. We in the law enforcement business need to get our shit together and know the law better then the guys that are carrying.
i don't know if i agree with the cop responding with a rifle as overkill. one of the persons that was called into police had an AR-15. i like to think that he was just matching the firepower of the people that he didn't know and didn't know him.
Deletenext, the cop was saying that he has to figure it out but did you see the plain clothes cop in the background? that was either a supervisor or detective. i think thats where the "we" have to figure it out comes into play. i get the feeling that this guy is more decisive than that. he might make the wrong call but i get the impression that he would come up with a course of action rather quickly.
I say a smallish, under size woman not that long ago at Paradise cafe with a coffee in one hand and a small child in the other, with a holstered gun on her waist in plain sight. I thought:" if a bad guy comes up to you and grabs that gun, what the heck are you going to drop to hold on to your gun?"
ReplyDeleteI think in most cases you are just advertising to the bad guys who to take out first when you open carry.....
thats the problem in a nut shell. what kills me is that these open carry advocates talk about constitutional rights without thinking it through.
Deletewhat happens when four six foot tall, two hundred pound gang bangers does the exact same thing as these women did in this video.
would these same open carry advocates say that they have a constitutional right NOT to identify to police?
or would they literally demand that the open carrying gang bangers have to present ID?
i'm betting they would demand it. but if you demand something for one group of people and not for others then you ARE being racist.
i just wish the whole open carry crowd would get their heads out of their asses.
Of course, if no 'bad guy' is sure how many folks sitting around that young mother are also armed but concealing, none of the scenario NICO put forward would have much reality.
ReplyDeleteA mix of open and concealed carry would again underscore the old saying:" A well-armed society is a courteous society..." Some LEOs would disagree - but by no means all.
As to the gang bangers of any size, they typically do the concealed carry until it is useful to have the open carry posture. How you'd detect gang bangers unless from a WANTED poster or via an I-phone app, that's an open challenge.
Standard LEO bread-&-butter daily grind...
Um, hello? S. Ct. said in DC V. Heller that there is a right to carry firearms, but no right to carry concealed; S. Ct. also said in Kolender v. Lawsen that citizens cannot be forced to carry and show ID to police. Here's how police open carry harassment of open carriers ends when people sue them under 42 USC 1983 for deprivation of civil rights - $26,000 settlements. See http://www.examiner.com/article/alamogordo-police-pay-21-000-to-settle-open-carry-lawsuit
ReplyDeletethis Cop is suffering from a condition commonly referred to as "resting taking a shit-face" regardless of what he's doing, unless he's fake-smiling because a supervisor or ranking liberal politician is watching him on the job, he will always look like he's trying to push out a steer's-head-sized Obama doll after a three-day drunk....don't hate people like him....pity them.
ReplyDeleteOBTW....open-carry, despite the U.S. constitution and permissive state law is tactically ignorant and it galvanizes the anti-gunner crowd to write their congresscritters...
wow you tactics guys are so wrong. Tactically speaking (anything that takes attention from an unarmed individual and puts it on me is a good thing) open carry allows for faster draws. personally speaking open carry advocates preach constantly about realistic situational awareness. basically if you are in a store and you hear the door open to take a look. no big deal. chances are if they are planning to rob the place it their weapon will be drawn at which point you can take cover and concealment and call for help.
ReplyDeleteyou're wrong on so many levels it hurts. you're placing yourself in a situation where you're surrounded by people you don't know and don't know you. what is your reaction distance? can you draw your weapon and aim it if a person is 4 ft from you once you make the decision that he's about to attack you? if you notice a person running your way at 10ft, you won't even clear your holster before he's on you.
Deletewhat happens if you're superhuman and you get your weapon out and he's running to hug his wife? you just committed a felony! what if you hesitate because you're not sure of the threat and he attacks you?
if you're smart you're totally defensive and taking blows while you make sure he doesn't get your weapon. if you're smart and unlucky this is a knife attack and he sinks the blade into your spleen or liver and then takes your weapon as you bleed out.
open carry people are insane. you do that stuff in rural settings, not in shopping malls or coffee houses.