The F-22 was supposed to have these, but they were cut as a cost savings measure. Evidently there are design issues with getting as wide a field of view with an AESA as you can get with an older, mechanically scanned array. This is the Russians first generation of AESA, so presumably they are in the same boat.
I've seen comments that this was also what delayed the Typhoon's move to AESA, since Typhoon tactics emphasized enough turn after a BVR missile shot to avoid the AIMVAL problem of following your BVR missile into WVR range in order to keep radar lock.
AESA radar arrays so far are fixed, differently from older radar plates which move to look sideways. That effectively means seeing only in the 120° right in front of the radar. Typhoon's AESA radar won't have side-looking arrays but will preserve the mechanical steering of the radar plate, like on old radars. This will allow the AESA array to turn sideways to increase the field of view to around 200° or so.
I'm convinced that the PAK-FA T-50 has strong potential to be better than the F-22 when it is finished in 2016. The Russians designed that aircraft with fighting other stealth aircraft in mind. The F-22 was built with the arrogant idea that our enemies would not be able to develop stealth warplanes or counter stealth tech for the next 25 years, which is why it has no IR sensors available and no helmet mounted sights. The Russians just aren't cutting any corners with PAK-FA and they still have a history of making better aircraft at cheaper prices than ours.
the world seems to have arrived at a consensus when it comes to the value of stealth. partial stealth or low observable treatments is worthwhile. full stealth not so much. we had an inflection point and ignored it.
when the USAF couldn't afford to build enough B-2s and later enough F-22s, we had a chance to change course and rethink things.
we didn't and now we're paying for it. if the Russians or Chinese are able to put up 2 or 3 times the number of low observable planes compared to our own and if they continue to lead in missile technology then we're looking at trouble.
You really need to go read up of the F-22. It had an IRST, it was canceled by Clinton Admin as part of the peace dividends. That shifted the cost to the F-35, as it was meant to be the same basic system. However the end product is probably much better with almost 15 years of IRST/TAD developments.
The US did not produce a production HMD for fighters until 2003. Again remember the F-22 was meant to go into EMD in 1994. They delayed it (Peace Dividends!) the first production EMD birds were built in FY1997, 6 years before the HMD tech was fielded.
Like the B-1A, which was built with its Late 60's early 70s tech. When the B-1B was put into production it was not "updated" to the latest tech available. The same with the F-22, they built the baseline aircraft.
Don't forget the L-band radar built into the wing leading edges, as well as the infrared search and track (IRST). Current stealth designs are optimized for X-band radar, and there's only so much you can do to mask a hot jet engine.
The F-22 might be in trouble against the PAK FA, the F-35 will be mincemeat.
We were the innovators, we built the first 5th Gen. mouse trap, and now we are seeing the rivals design the proverbial better mouse trap. The Russians saw where we cut corners or had vulnerabilities and designed a plane that was better.
'Systems where survivability depends almost completely on X-Band radar signature reduction, such as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and F-15SE “Silent Eagle” will now become exposed by fighter-borne L-Band radars, and thus become highly vulnerable to defeat in Beyond Visual Range air combat.'
Ahmmm Stealth tech yours(Americans)? Remember HO-229 first German stealth aircraft which Americans smuggled after the fall of Nazi's in WII.All stealth tech on present 5th gen aircrafts were built around concept of HO-229.
L band AESA AWACS have been flying for years too. Interestingly though, the USN, which has to be looking at both Russian and Chinese stealth developments, has cancelled lower frequency bands for AEGIS and is going all in on X band. To me this means that the USN must believe that X band radars, presumably with improved signal processing, can be fully capable vs stealth designs.
http://www.f-16.net/attachments/fa_22_growth_apa_484.jpg -->> This is the plan, at least if the budget allows it! :))
By the time the Pak Fa will enter production in 2016-2017, the F-22 will be upgraded (they will find some money until then) and the next generation of fighters will be in prototype stage. Plus that, i don't think the russians will have the money to produce more than 60-70 Pak Fa. They barely have money to produce 48 Su-35 and 60 Su-30SM.
You gotta be kidding PAKFA(RAF) & PAKFGFA(Indian variant) all together will cross production unit of 500 air crafts.Moreover they have planned the naval variant also so easily by 2020 they could mass produce more than 700 air crafts & not to mention the export customers who are interested in Asia-pacific regions.Still PAKFA is aerodynamically & kinematically outperforms F-22.
This is not a problem. There are plenty of techniques to spoof a radar, and this is the one I recommend; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_radio_frequency_memory
After we finally started seeing some close up photos of the pak50 I am really questioning and not so sure about its true stealth ability. I look at photos and see ping points all over this thing rivets, visible gaps were access panels are, antennas sticking out all over, and photos from the front were the engines look to be wide open. It looks sloppy construction engineering.
I am starting to think these things are no more stealthy than say the F15SE or the new super hornet upgrade with conformals.
I think the F-22 is going to see the Russian stealth version well before the Russians can see it.
An F-22 running point scout for BVR launch platforms above being the shooters I think will be a deadly mix checking those number mismatch.
The F-22 was supposed to have these, but they were cut as a cost savings measure. Evidently there are design issues with getting as wide a field of view with an AESA as you can get with an older, mechanically scanned array. This is the Russians first generation of AESA, so presumably they are in the same boat.
ReplyDeleteI've seen comments that this was also what delayed the Typhoon's move to AESA, since Typhoon tactics emphasized enough turn after a BVR missile shot to avoid the AIMVAL problem of following your BVR missile into WVR range in order to keep radar lock.
AESA radar arrays so far are fixed, differently from older radar plates which move to look sideways. That effectively means seeing only in the 120° right in front of the radar.
DeleteTyphoon's AESA radar won't have side-looking arrays but will preserve the mechanical steering of the radar plate, like on old radars. This will allow the AESA array to turn sideways to increase the field of view to around 200° or so.
I'm convinced that the PAK-FA T-50 has strong potential to be better than the F-22 when it is finished in 2016. The Russians designed that aircraft with fighting other stealth aircraft in mind. The F-22 was built with the arrogant idea that our enemies would not be able to develop stealth warplanes or counter stealth tech for the next 25 years, which is why it has no IR sensors available and no helmet mounted sights. The Russians just aren't cutting any corners with PAK-FA and they still have a history of making better aircraft at cheaper prices than ours.
ReplyDeletei think its a bit simpler than even that.
Deletethe world seems to have arrived at a consensus when it comes to the value of stealth. partial stealth or low observable treatments is worthwhile. full stealth not so much. we had an inflection point and ignored it.
when the USAF couldn't afford to build enough B-2s and later enough F-22s, we had a chance to change course and rethink things.
we didn't and now we're paying for it. if the Russians or Chinese are able to put up 2 or 3 times the number of low observable planes compared to our own and if they continue to lead in missile technology then we're looking at trouble.
the bow is important but so is the arrow.
You really need to go read up of the F-22. It had an IRST, it was canceled by Clinton Admin as part of the peace dividends. That shifted the cost to the F-35, as it was meant to be the same basic system. However the end product is probably much better with almost 15 years of IRST/TAD developments.
DeleteThe US did not produce a production HMD for fighters until 2003. Again remember the F-22 was meant to go into EMD in 1994. They delayed it (Peace Dividends!) the first production EMD birds were built in FY1997, 6 years before the HMD tech was fielded.
Like the B-1A, which was built with its Late 60's early 70s tech. When the B-1B was put into production it was not "updated" to the latest tech available. The same with the F-22, they built the baseline aircraft.
The BVR paradox.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget the L-band radar built into the wing leading edges, as well as the infrared search and track (IRST). Current stealth designs are optimized for X-band radar, and there's only so much you can do to mask a hot jet engine.
ReplyDeleteThe F-22 might be in trouble against the PAK FA, the F-35 will be mincemeat.
We were the innovators, we built the first 5th Gen. mouse trap, and now we are seeing the rivals design the proverbial better mouse trap. The Russians saw where we cut corners or had vulnerabilities and designed a plane that was better.
ReplyDelete'Systems where survivability depends almost completely on X-Band radar signature reduction, such as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and F-15SE “Silent Eagle” will now become exposed by fighter-borne L-Band radars, and thus become highly vulnerable to defeat in Beyond Visual Range air combat.'
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-140909-1.html
Ahmmm Stealth tech yours(Americans)? Remember HO-229 first German stealth aircraft which Americans smuggled after the fall of Nazi's in WII.All stealth tech on present 5th gen aircrafts were built around concept of HO-229.
DeleteL band AESA AWACS have been flying for years too. Interestingly though, the USN, which has to be looking at both Russian and Chinese stealth developments, has cancelled lower frequency bands for AEGIS and is going all in on X band. To me this means that the USN must believe that X band radars, presumably with improved signal processing, can be fully capable vs stealth designs.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.f-16.net/attachments/fa_22_growth_apa_484.jpg -->> This is the plan, at least if the budget allows it! :))
ReplyDeleteBy the time the Pak Fa will enter production in 2016-2017, the F-22 will be upgraded (they will find some money until then) and the next generation of fighters will be in prototype stage. Plus that, i don't think the russians will have the money to produce more than 60-70 Pak Fa. They barely have money to produce 48 Su-35 and 60 Su-30SM.
You gotta be kidding PAKFA(RAF) & PAKFGFA(Indian variant) all together will cross production unit of 500 air crafts.Moreover they have planned the naval variant also so easily by 2020 they could mass produce more than 700 air crafts & not to mention the export customers who are interested in Asia-pacific regions.Still PAKFA is aerodynamically & kinematically outperforms F-22.
DeleteOMG! :)) 500, 700?!?! With what money?!? You do not have any economic knowledge, or any sense in what you are saying!
DeleteThis is not a problem. There are plenty of techniques to spoof a radar, and this is the one I recommend; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_radio_frequency_memory
ReplyDeleteAfter we finally started seeing some close up photos of the pak50 I am really questioning and not so sure about its true stealth ability. I look at photos and see ping points all over this thing rivets, visible gaps were access panels are, antennas sticking out all over, and photos from the front were the engines look to be wide open. It looks sloppy construction engineering.
ReplyDeleteI am starting to think these things are no more stealthy than say the F15SE or the new super hornet upgrade with conformals.
I think the F-22 is going to see the Russian stealth version well before the Russians can see it.
An F-22 running point scout for BVR launch platforms above being the shooters I think will be a deadly mix checking those number mismatch.
In short in air war since WW1 and up to today the rule has been, the first to see is the first to shoot and so the first to win.
ReplyDelete