via Reuters....
By 2019, the Pentagon projects the cost of each new F-35 fighter plane will be around $85 million, putting it on a par with the cost of current fighter planes, said Jim McAleese, a Virginia-based defense consultant.I'm throwing the bullshit flag on this one.
The South Korean order could create 10,000 jobs at Lockheed and its suppliers as they build the components to make the 40 jets.
The sources said the projected savings and job counts were comparable to similar estimates released when Japan announced plans to buy 42 F-35 jets from the U.S. government in December 2011
No. I'm not an economist but if 40 jets can create 10,000 jobs then the USAF order alone should bring the US unemployment rate down to at least 5%.
Read the entire article (here) but be advised. They moved from questionable claims to fantasy island.
Why are they this desperate? What is going on that we can't see to make supporters give such silly statements to reporters, and why can't reporters see that its craziness on a bun?
South Korea's ruling party just ordered a renegotiation of the F-35 fighter jet purchase, saying the current deal would be unfair: http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2013/11/27/59/0301000000AEN20131127004300315F.html
ReplyDeleteYes, there is a mass press backlash against the F-35 right now, calling it the worst of three bids.
DeleteAt least the Silent Eagle didn't have to be maintained in Japan, while the F-35 does. This issue will become particularly sensitive because there is an ongoing 40 year old ADIZ dispute between Japan and Korea right now, an area also claimed by China under its new ADIZ declaration. Basically, the civilian administration(FIR) and the military administration(ADIZ) do not match and the Japanese ADIZ overlaps a big chunk of Korean FIR in the East China Sea, and Korea wants to realign its ADIZ to match that of FIR which Japan opposes. At the same time, Japan wants to expand its ADIZ to cover the Liancourt Rocks under the Korean control.
So Lockheed could blow the whole thing by making one stupid move, like mentioning Japan in East Asian F-35 manufacturing or maintenance.
On ADIZ, the main bone of contention regarding F-35 sales to Turkey is IFF.
Deletenews report:
Ankara’s decision to move slowly on its F-35 purchase is not just driven by the project’s technical problems.* It also has to do with the United States’ uneasiness in sharing technology with Turkey, a problem dating back to the 1980s, when Turkey purchased its first F-16s. Turkey’s main interest is in acquiring software source codes for weapon systems, which the U.S. Congress has so far refused to share.
In particular, Turkey wants control over the aircraft’s identification friend or foe (IFF) system in order to offer more flexibility with regard to how its fleet identifies foreign air force jets. The default setting of the original U.S. software for Turkey’s F-16 fleet, for instance, identified Israeli air force jets as exclusively friendly. //
Lockheed (naturally) wants to retain full control of the F-35 flying computer for financial reasons.
From their website: James McAleese founded McAleese & Associates, P.C., a government contracts consulting and legal firm, in 1992. His vision was simple: to help organizations of all sizes understand the myriad requirements for doing business with the Federal government, and to provide legal and consulting services that would enable them to maximize value from those contract opportunities.
ReplyDeleteMcAleese and another pay-to-play Lockheed shill Loren Thomppson have a relationship with Andrea Shalal-Esa at Reuters where they frequently -- and more frequently lately, with the F-35 in deep schedule/cost doo-doo -- get their pro-Lockheed screeds published in the MSM.
In the article: Loren Thompson, chief operating officer of the Virginia-based Lexington Institute, said the South Korean news would provide a significant boost to the F-35 program.
"The sale of F-35s to Japan and South Korea - America's two leading industrial allies in northeast Asia means the F-35 is now becoming the gold standard for tactical aircraft across the western Pacific," he said. He said Singapore would likely follow suit with its own orders, followed by Malaysia and possibly New Zealand.
The Lockheed checks were in the mail and have been received and acted upon by Andrea Shalal-Esa at Reuters. It's the world we live in.
So now it's ALL about corruption. Couldn't possibly be that the South Korean actual USERS of this capability advised what they thought best...
ReplyDeleteI do recall recently however a series of articles on the imminent demise of the F-35 project when the South Korean order didn't eventuate.
Now however all we see is that corruption was obviously at play, given they have chosen the complete opposite to the consensus opinion around here and elsewhere.
Is there not going to be even ONE article examining critically whether or not the F-35 MIGHT actually do, what South Korea really wants from a new generation fighter, they are going to spend billions on?
It's up to the USERS to explain what they MIGHT actually do with this paper airplane.
Delete@ Jason Simmons
DeleteThe F-35's intended role in the ROKAF's service is to be a modern day F/A-117. The F-35 will not be used for SEAD, air defense, anti-ship strike, or strategic bombing because it can't handle those roles anyway. The air force asked for only 20 F-35s but is getting 40 assuming the parliament doesn't block this deal which is now becoming a distinct possibility.
Accordingly, the air force wants to buy 20 F/A-50s to make up for the jet shortfalls and use the saved money on something else like the F-15K upgrade to AN/APG-82 etc.
Whoa. Fill this army guy in.
Delete--No SEAD? The F-35 won't do what the F-16 and the F-18 do?
--No strategic bombing? The F-35 (conceptually) is a stealth bomber more than anything, isn't it?
--etc.
Also: How do you know ROKAF usage?
Even after parliament, the FMS would have to be negotiated -- price and other terms such as offsets. It won't happen soon. Being FMS the price, by law, must not be less than what the US is paying, and actually nobody including GAO knows what that is.
Don Bacon
Delete> --No SEAD? The F-35 won't do what the F-16 and the F-18 do?
The HARM missile is not integrated into the F-35. Recall that the advertised role of F-35 is to evade radar, not destroy radar and clear the way for other jets.
> No strategic bombing? The F-35 (conceptually) is a stealth bomber more than anything, isn't it?
F-35's role is to bomb targets that need verification.
One was actually asking what was the difference between an F-15 launching a Taurus missile and an F-35 dropping JDAMs, since the Taurus missiles launched by F-15 are more cost effective and offer superior safety for the pilots. The response was the verification that the intended target has been hit and eliminated. These are the kind of targets that must be eliminated within 30 minutes, such as the life of Kim Jong Eun, the nuclear weapons depot entry, an ICBM on the launch pad, etc. While the Taurus missile would be more destructive than a JDAM, there is no way to confirm that the target has been eliminated or a second attack must be carried out on the spot.
The F-35 is supposed to use sensor fusion for things like SEAD. So it triangulates on the radar, develops a 10 digit grid to the radar, passes that information on to the JDAM/SDB and displays a little image in the pilots helmet of the target. Then one away on the radar emitter. Supposedy.
DeleteMaking all of this work is what is taking forever and as many people and Boeing have pointed out all of this can be done with a new software update and new electronics on new builds of existing fighters like the F/A -18 or F-15SE.
Pointless trying to fill Slowman in. He has been wrong on every single call to do with the South Korean fighter project and his "appraisal" of what the South Korean's are planning to do with this aircraft are about as accurate as Neville Chamberlain's calls on the chances of war in 1938...
DeleteThe whole "paper airplane" bit is getting a bit out of date. It is flying with Block 2B software. The software the USMC intends to declare IOC on. It is conducting end to end AMRAAM and Paveway/JDAM live fires utilising the sensor and communication systems on-board.
ReplyDeleteWhatever you think about the aircraft's abilities, when it conducts end to end, self-designated Paveway live fire missions, that is something Eurofighter Typhoon has only achieved in 2013 as well...
That's a tad bit more than "paper" capability.
The F-35B is NOT flying with Block 2B software.
DeleteApr 2013: General Bogdan is “moderately confident” that Lockheed will deliver Block 2B software, which manages weapons delivery, in 2015, two years behind schedule. Block 3F adds capabilities that are key to the F-35’s core mission‚ such as multi-ship suppression, destruction of enemy air defenses and new air-to-air and air-to-ground modes. Bogdan April 2013: “I see more risk to the delivery of Block 3F, our full warfighting capability, by 2017.”
The JSF is now being operated with training software. F-35B IOC (initial operational capability) -- Jul 2015 - Dec 2015.
Then there are other problems such as this:
F-35B lift system live fire testing showed the system is tolerant to selected single missile fragments. The single fragment-induced damage to the lift fan produced in this test did not degrade the overall propulsion system performance. Nonetheless, analysis predicts that fragment-induced damage could result in more severe effects that could lead to catastrophic lift system failure (e.g. more than 25 percent lift fan blade loss leading to fan disintegration) as a consequence of certain engagements.-DOT&E testimony, Jun 19, 2013
Oct 24, 2013--First STOVL mission at Eglin AFB. (It was not fired at.)
You are wrong Don. The F-35B is flying at Edwards today with Block 2B software. I concede that that Block 2B is not fully certified and there are specific software standards within each software Block" however Block 2B has been uploaded to mission and systems test aircraft flying at Edwards as of March 2013.
DeleteIOC will be on Block 2B aircraft that are completely certified with the last "standard" of Block 2B to be developed. Block 3i follows, but it is the Block 2B software load implemented on new generation processors, required for the full Block 3F standard.
The mission systems aircraft conducting end to end testing of Paveway, JDAM and AMRAAM weapon systems at present are doing so with Block 2B software.
What South Korea will encounter will be similar to the Netherlands situation, due to F-35 high cost and complexity.
ReplyDeleteyear (aircraft type)--aircraft owned--maximum aircraft deployed on missions
1999 (F-16) -- 120 -- 54
2023 (F-35) -- 37 -- 4
--from Netherlands Court of Audit pdf, Sep 19 2013
Four aircraft available? Maybe not. This comes with a caveat:
"Its deployment calculations, however, are not complete. Not all training hours have been taken into account and the calculations are optimistic in other areas. It is therefore doubtful whether four fighter aircraft could be deployed without compromising training or other tasks."
Speaking of the F-35B, I did a little research on the Rolls-Royce Lift System.
ReplyDeleteThe Rolls-Royce LiftSystem® comprises the Rolls-Royce LiftFan®, Driveshaft, 3 Bearing Swivel Module (3BSM) and Roll Posts.
The LiftFan, a 50-inch, two-stage counter-rotating fan capable of generating more than 20,000lbf of thrust, is driven from a conventional gas turbine and produces the forward vertical lift. The 3BSM is a swivelling jet pipe capable of redirecting the main engine thrust downward to provide the rear vertical lift. It can rotate through 95 degrees in 2.5 seconds and passes 18,000lbf of thrust. Aircraft roll control is achieved using the Roll Posts mounted in the wings of the aircraft, which provide a further 1,950lbf of thrust each.
Here's a cool image showing the STOVL vertical airflow.
http://www.theengineer.co.uk/Pictures/web/d/f/k/27%203D%20model%20airflow%20trials.jpg
Pratt procures the systems from R-R. The unit price has varied widely.
LiftSystem cost
LiftSystem cost
Lot 3 $171 / 9 = $19m ea
Lot 4 $315 / 17 = $18m ea
Lot 5 $195.5 / 3 = $65m ea
Lot 6 $215 / 6 = $35m ea
That includes spares and support.
@Jason Simmons.
ReplyDeletethe only thing that needs to be said is to repeat what an Italian Colonel said.
the F-35 is not a top rate fighter.
that means that the F-35 proponents are lying or the Colonel is. considering all the falsehoods that have come out of the program, my bet is that the proponents are the ones that are overstating the F-35 capabilities/costs/etc.
The complementary nature of the Typhoon and JSF is also the key to Italy's plans, according to Col. Vito Cracas, commander of the air force's 36th Fighter Wing. “The JSF does not have a high-end air-to-air capability,” he told the conference. We need to have both aircraft.”
Deletehey Don. Slowman is a reader from the region (i forget which country) that has been spot on when it comes to developments with the F-35 in both S. Korea and Japan. i find him credible. in fact he's predicted many of the events before they made the news.
DeleteYeah you can believe that if it suits your argument Sol. Of course that's an air force chief in the middle of an argument as to why he needs both Typhoon AND F-35 but hey, clearly stuff like that isn't important when it comes time to diss the F-35...
Deletethe Colonel made a declaritive statement. i didn't parse it or twist. i noted his words from an Aviation Week article.
Deletebut lets be clear.
it doesn't matter if he was trying to talk the pants off a woman at the O-Club. its a clear concise statement of how he rates the F-35.
its not a first rate air to air machine. he's not flying F-22's. he has Typhoons. a 4th gen fighter and what he's saying is that the Typhoon will shoot down the F-35 (now i am adding conjecture but still...).
consider the fact that air defense missions seem to come at a premium for forces that aren't concerned with force projection that is an eye opener. the F-35 is a turd. we heard it from the critics, and now we're hearing it from a guy whose had the full brief .....
@Slowman. Haven't heard anywhere that Skorea's F35 will be maintained in Japan, would like to see some article or where you got that source of info, it is a bad call from LMT if true.
ReplyDeleteAlso if F35 is a F117 like replacement, it should be able to do some SEAD or strategic bombing inside North Korea if called to do so, might be harder if talking China or Japan, hopefully, it will never have to go against either country.
Nico
DeleteWell, 90% of news don't make it across the language barrier.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.munhwa.com%2Fnews%2Fview.html%3Fno%3D2013112601070827060004
The situation is very similar to the F-35 maintenance in Europe, where all regional F-35s are required to be maintained at the Italian FACO and no exception is allowed, not even Israel.
In Asia and Australia, all regional F-35s are required to be maintained at Japanese FACO. If you don't like this arrangement, the buyer can ship its F-35s back to the US for maintenance.
There we go. Another falsehood from Slowman, that Australian F-35's will be flown to Japan for maintenance...
DeleteHilarious thing is you only have to wait a couple of days to see this Sol. As soon as the REAL news comes out, he'll change tack and deny he ever said stuff, such as the above comment...
Interesting. If the IFF for Turkey's F-35s will be like that of their F-16s. How will a S.Korean F-35 IFF id a Japanese F-35? Also of interest for Turkey are the nav limits put into their F-16s ...much like that of Pakistan's F-16s. All covered under Delta SDD of the F-35 program. http://goo.gl/GZ0Ixa
ReplyDeleteEric,
DeleteWell, you can be assured that Japanese and Korean F-35s will not see each other as hostiles, nor are they allowed to release their weapons outside of their respective ADIZ.
Of course, this is unrelated to the realities on the ground, where Japan and Korea see each other as grave threats to their own national securities.
They too have island disputes. Dokdo/Takeshima islands.
DeleteThe "exercised sovereignty" argument provides no comfort to Japan in its dispute with South Korea over the Dokdo Islands (Takeshima to the Japanese). After the conclusion of World War II, the United States supported the historical Japanese claims to the islands but declined to put their defense within the scope of the US-Japan Joint Security Treaty. So Koreans says it's theirs.
image
Models dance on Dokdo, South Korea’s easternmost islets, on Nov. 1, 2013, as part of an event to display the traditional Korean costume on the rocky outcroppings over which Japan has repeatedly claimed its sovereignty. (Yonhap)
http://img.yonhapnews.co.kr/photo/yna/YH/2013/11/01/PYH2013110105020031500_P2.jpg
If we and/or our allies go to war with a power that has the depth and will to stand and fight a sustained fight (Russia, China, Iran, NKorea etc.....or even a power that can put more than a couple dozen planes in the air and launch more than a dozen accurate cruise missles) half these F-35's would be probably be destroyed in combat and operations in a month. Am I to understand that it takes 10,000 skilled, unionized, politically correct, corporate-screened, contractor-guaranteed, security-screened, trustworthy and patriotic people to build less than 100 of these aircraft??
ReplyDeleteHTF will we be able to keep that up in wartime when the 5th column attacks our power grid, transportation and manufacturing infrastructure?
IMHO these $85million to $100million apiece glorified targets will be near-obsolete when Pandora's box finally opens up...that... and they will be irreplaceable.