Saturday, December 21, 2013

Breaking! US Military Aircraft Hit in S. Sudan!!!! UPDATE AND RANT!



via AP.
KAMPALA, Uganda (AP) — Rebel gunfire hit a U.S. military aircraft trying to evacuate American citizens caught in a remote region of South Sudan that on Saturday became a battle ground between the country's military and renegade troops, officials said. Four U.S. service members were wounded.
The U.S. military aircraft were heading to Bor, the capital of the state of Jonglei and scene of some of the nation's worst violence over the last week. One American service member was reported to be in critical condition.
The U.S. military's Africa Command said the hit aircraft was "participating in a mission to evacuate American citizens in Bor."
"After receiving fire from the ground while approaching the site, the aircraft diverted to an airfield outside the country and aborted the mission," the statement said. "The injured troops are being treated for their wounds."
Two officials told The Associated Press that after the aircraft took incoming fire, they turned around and flew to Kampala, Uganda. From there the service members were flown on to Nairobi, Kenya for medical treatment. The two officials are in East Africa and demanded anonymity to share information not made public.
The military statement did not identify the aircraft taking part in the mission. One official told AP it appeared the aircraft were Ospreys, the type of aircraft that can fly like a helicopter and a plane.
South Sudan's military spokesman, Col. Philip Aguer, said that government troops are not in control of Bor, so the attack on the U.S. aircraft has to be blamed on renegade soldiers, he said.
TRUST ME FRIENDS!

We do not want to become involved in a war in Africa.  It will make what has gone on in the Middle East look like the good ole days.

UPDATE:
I've been screaming that the V-22 is vulnerable in the approach and departure from landing zones.  I've been yelling that the terrorist have read our playbook and that they would setup to kill us the same way the old timers talk about the Viet Cong laying helo traps in Vietnam.  Early reports indicate that military leadership wasn't listening.

UPDATE 1:
Its been confirmed that these were CV-22s. I wonder what secret squirrel stuff they're doing.  You can bet that there is alot more to it than evacuating civilians.  Additionally I would love to know (but never will) if they have different landing profiles from the USMC version of the plane...or more precisely if they can maneuver more aggressively in the landing phase of things.

36 comments :

  1. They send an armed/unarmed transport plane, helo ( everything with big "?" ) to the practical war zone without any type of escort ? ... that's a little, stupid ?

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    1. i don't know cause i wasn't there. i'm not going to second guess this till more info comes out and even then it'll be on strategy not on the tactical decision....unless its politically or can be seen as politically motivated. additionally you have to remember that all these actions are occurring under the UN flag so that might restrain our actions. who knows. more info is coming i'm sure.

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    2. US doesn't have any proper escorts anymore ,you would need somethin with tuboprops not an F18 or Cobra as CV-22 is outside useful speed range of ither jet or helicopter.

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  2. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/21/us-military-aircraft-south-sudan_n_4485084.html

    Lots of conflicting news, one or maybe both craft were hit, heard it could have been MV22s but not definitive. Troops were hurt,one extreme critical, not sure if casualties.

    We need to wait and hear a bit more details about what happened and what was the mission....

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    1. http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/21/21996598-four-hurt-as-gunfire-hits-us-military-plane-sent-to-evacuate-americans-from-south-sudan?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=6

      It does look like 2? CV22s were involved...

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  3. We don't just need to stay out of Africa we need relative peace in general.

    The people have spoken and said the don't want excessively funded military. I don't mind that at all as long as we maintain a quality defense. The best way to secure adequate funding for essential things is to eliminate nonessential funding from nonessential operations.

    Had we not had the war on terror (which we didn't pick and had to win) sure we would have spent less but we would have had active F-22 production and a lot less other weapon system cancellations.

    When maneuvering for funding you have to use the military just enough for people to remember the need for it, but you don't want to mire into conflict so extensive that it eats up all the gains and develops off center priorities or create an arms race out of fear for the US.

    The US has kicked plenty of butt lately and its time to chill out before the world starts buying more guns.

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    1. Seriously? I am surprised there is still someone out there who thinks anyone can win a 'War on Terror'. When is the reality that the enemies are stronger and all our militaries are weaker because of it going to finally hit?

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  4. AFRICOM reports they were three CV-22 Ospreys. Who owns them?

    The 449th Air Expeditionary Group, Camp Lemonnier, Djibouti, provides combat search and rescue for the Combined Joint Task Force, Horn of Africa. It is comprised of HC-130P Hercules from the 81st Expeditionary Rescue Squadron, and para-rescuemen from the 82nd Expeditionary Rescue Squadron. Djibouti is about 900 miles from Bor, S. Sudan. It's about half that distance to Uganda, where the CV-22s diverted to. There are US military in Uganda for the anti-LRA effort -- they probably had CV-22s.

    Why didn't they use C-130's?

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  5. We are trying to mediate between the two clans S.Sudan is a US ally and we have ties to both of the tribes that are at eachothers throats right now, so we have the ability to mediate some type of settlement, divided power, elections, etc... Good stuff not outright military but diplo.

    I don't really see how this is a negative for the V-22. Either way sounds like they were going into a expected friendly landing zone for a meeting and either someone went rogue or it was a attempted trap (I wager rogue because who facing a civil war needing weapons/support would want to add the US to your sh*t list). The V-22 took the surprise absorbed the first hit then flew over 200miles south to Uganda (its a little over 200miles just to the border of Uganda from Bor). Sounds pretty impressive to me.

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  6. NYTimes:
    The military sent three CV-22 Ospreys — tilt-rotor aircraft that can fly like an airplane and land like a helicopter — to evacuate American citizens [CNN: roughly three dozen] from a United Nations compound in Bor, the capital of Jonglei State. The United States has not said how many Americans were there or whether they were in immediate danger.

    As the aircraft approached the town, “they were fired on by small-arms fire by unknown forces,” the military said in a statement. All three aircraft were damaged.

    Afterward, the mission was aborted and the Ospreys flew about 500 miles to Entebbe, Uganda. One United States service member was seriously wounded and taken to Nairobi, Kenya, where he was said to be in surgery on Saturday evening. Three others were reported to have minor injuries, American officials said.

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  7. ethnic tribes -- map
    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71885000/gif/_71885758_01_ethnic_groups_464.gif

    The tensions are between the Nuer, centered in the capital Juba, and the Dinka in Bor, to the north, where the aborted evacuation of Americans was attempted. The president (Nuer) sacked the VP (Dinka) last summer.

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  8. I have much respect for you Sol, but, in this case I have to call Confirmation Bias. Particularly given how little information we have in this case.

    I have no dog in this fight, but, it'd seem a platform like the V-22 MIGHT be useful in the new realities of smaller forces. Before we jump to its cost causing smaller forces, I think we know better. The left isn't dumb. They know cut military dollars are easily restored, but, experience lost takes much longer to replace. Apologies on the digression; but, budgetary restraints or not, troop cuts are coming.

    That all said, I'm sure there is room for improvement in the various iterations of the V-22. At least it took some kind of fire, survived and was able to get the wounded away safely.

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  9. What type of guns do the CV-22Bs have? I heard BAE was developing a gun system for the Osprey..

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  10. To me the MV-22 is a good aircraft, but it is a niche aircraft. Its fast and adaptable in mission sets but it has a large side and frontal profile that will always make it vulnerable to small arms fire. And the propellers make it nearly impossible to mount weapons pylons on it. If you try to mount weapons internally you drive the cost to the point of unfeasible. I would like to see it incorporate a belly mounted M230 chaingun though.

    Its fast and the military already has it, its good for SAR and personnel transport on helicopter carriers that don't have CATOBAR.
    For landlocked missions the heavy attack (AH-64, AH-1Z) type helicopters with X2 technology and the Sikorsky-Boeing Defiant have a lot more potential if speed and service ceiling are worth getting something different.
    FVL JMR is worth the R+D in the long run but I wouldn't put a huge priority on procuring that in a funding crunch since the military needs adequate fighters before we get helicopter happy.

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    1. Thats probably the gun that the V280 valour has, which IMO looks like a much, much better aircraft, the MV-22 is like flying into enemy territory completely unarmed and hoping the enemy didn't bring there guns in. And wait till they see some real action, against enemies with credible anti-air capacities like the US armed Jihadists in syria which have MANPADS.

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  11. Quote: "I've been screaming.....I've been yelling"

    Lord ain't that the truth. *GetOutOfMyFoxholeDramaqueen

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  12. The Osprey is an awesome aircraft for a combat scenario where you don't need gunship escort, you aren't fired at when landing or taking off, where heat-seeking MANPADS simply do not exist, where natural obstacles like windshear and downdrafts just don't happen at the wrong times, and for when the bad guy's flaming baseballs just bounce off your fuselage like they do in the Holly-weird movies.

    The Osprey will crash and kill every Grunt aboard if the pilot brings it in too fast (this was proven in Yuma killing all 25 Grunts aboard plus the aircrew.) As far as I heard, that massive prop blade spins just 18 inches away from the pilot cabin when in horizontal flight mode which almost guarantees a total loss to the craft and cargo if one or both engines take a hit from a MANPAD or heavy AAA and disintegrate in mid-air.

    This is a great aircraft for niche high-speed missions behind the lines and rapid cargo support and medical evac. But for the flawed concept of vertical envelopment (a concept that has sold thousands of helicopters and killed tens of thousands of GI's and virtually wiped from memory the proven concept of taking and holding ground with superior numbers)....this boondoggle of a combat aircraft is a true troop killer that is being misallocated in order to prop up the military industrial complex.

    And don't think for one minute that our future adversaries aren't expecting them... and preparing to nullify their marginal speed and lift advantage while the "thinkers" in our DARPA reinvent the wheel trying to come up with an escort that can keep up with the V-22.

    I'm so glad I'm out....

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    1. OBTW...there is OIL is S. Sudan and BHO kinda gave S. Arabia the finger by not attacking Syria when told to by the house of Saud (who guarantee the strength of the fiat US dollar by making OPEC trade all oil in US dollars) so if it's in America's corporate/economic interests WE will occupy and die there just like everywhere else in that part of the world that bleeds black gold.

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    2. Thank you for that intelligent analysis, skeptic.

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  13. There's a dragon in the area.

    China is Sudan's biggest ally and is the largest investor in the oil industry there and in South Sudan.

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  14. --The U.S. Air Force has evacuated 120 people, including U.S. and foreign diplomats as well as other American citizens.
    --45 soldiers of the East Africa Response Force (EARF) based in Djibouti have been deployed with the primary mission is to guard the Embassy in Juba.
    --The soldiers in Juba are from the 2nd Brigade, 1st Infantry Division based at Fort Riley, Kansas assigned to the EARF on a rotational basis.

    It's intended to be an improvement over Benghazi.

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    1. Sad to say...but just showing up is an improvement over Benghazi.

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    2. But it ain't over 'til it's over, is Solomon's point.

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    3. yeah and if you take a look at the map you provided then it makes the issues in Afghanistan look down right simple.

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  15. It's getting ugly there. Keep up on Sudan news here.
    http://www.sudantribune.com/index.php

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  16. This is weird:

    from CNN:
    U.N. civilian staff were moved from a compound in the flashpoint town of Bor to Juba on Saturday, the same day a U.S. mission to airlift Americans out was aborted when the aircraft came under fire.

    One of the injured "went through some pretty serious surgery" after being taken to Nairobi, Kenya, for wounds from the gunshots fired at the aircraft. All four have been able to speak to their families.

    There was a "strong possibility" the U.S. military would send aircraft back into Bor, the official said.

    "If U.N. helicopters are flying, then there's no reason the U.S. military can't go back in," the official said, with the two most realistic options being either U.S. military or U.N. aircraft.

    A senior U.S. military official said one option being looked at was the use of "contract air" under the control of the Defense Department, which has a number of contracted aircraft in the region.//

    UN helicopters can fly but CV-22s can't?
    Why go back in?
    Contract air?

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    1. its not weird. the cover story is simply falling apart. the contract air is just an indication that the CIA is about to take the reigns of the operation in country and the UN is basically useless. but you know all that so thanks for letting me weigh in!!!!

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    2. Useless? The UN has apparently been outperforming the Air Force.

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  17. If my memory from over forty years ago serves me correctly ALL aircraft are vulnerable on approach and departure AND at low altitudes. The question is, if ti was in apache country why weren't gunships supplying cover and/or boots on the ground securing the LZ?

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    1. yeah but the V-22 is in a special class of vulnerable. the type of flying i experienced in the back of CH-46 would never happen in a V-22 in the landing zone. i mean i've had air guys give me a smooth ride right till we got close to the LZ and then its vomit bag time...i'm talking you look up and you're looking at your buddy across from you type of flying...and again, thats in CH-46.

      the V-22 comes in low, slow, straight and level. its extremely vulnerable. you make good points too but that goes to threat assessment more than the plane type.

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    2. V-22 can fly up to 7000 meters(higher than any other heli) -- invulnerable to portable SAM's, at 500 km/h speed -- twice as mush than any other helicopter, which could mean life or death for personnel on the ground.

      There is no more versatile helicopter or transport airplane comparable to V-22, and i doubt it must come "low, straight and level" to LZ.

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  18. The UN flies the Mi-8 helicopter.

    An Mi-8 helicopter of the United Nations Mission in South Sudan (UNMISS), in Juba
    http://www.unmultimedia.org/photo/detail.jsp?id=543/543376&key=0&query=helicopters&lang=en&sf=

    Apparently it's outperforming CV-22.

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  19. Mi-8s from Rwanda.
    news report:
    Rwanda provides six helicopters for UN efforts in Sudan
    Source: UNMISS, 01-Jan-13
    Boosting the mission’s ability to airlift personnel and supplies in South Sudan, 120 Rwandan aviation troops arrived today to join UNMISS (United Naitons Mission in Southern Sudan) in the capital Juba. The contingent brings with it six helicopters. Three arrived yesterday with 18 personnel, while the remaining helicopters are expected in coming days.

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  20. This just in:
    "This morning, the United States -- in coordination with the United Nations and in consultation with the South Sudanese government -- safely evacuated American citizens from Bor, South Sudan," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in a statement. "U.S. citizens and citizens from our partner nations were flown from Bor to Juba on U.N. and U.S. civilian helicopters.

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  21. The CV-22s belonged to the 8th Special Operations Squadron and were based in Hurlburt field. They were attacked and damaged by small arms fire while on approach.

    I thought these things were going to be less vulnerable than helos while on approach due to their speed. Maybe there were a lot of small arms fire ...

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    1. Source: http://www.pnj.com/article/20131223/NEWS12/131223007/Three-helicopters-from-Hurlburt-Field-attacked-Sudan

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