Thanks much Alfredo!!
http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/nacional,brasil-vai-escolher-cacas-suecos-,1110114,0.htm
http://www.naval.com.br/blog/2013/12/18/istoe-gripen-ng-e-o-novo-caca-brasileiro/
Shit just got real.
With this win, Gripen is now full time into the market and a truth is realized. Affordability...real affordability is now essential.
The aerospace world just got flipped on its head.
http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/nacional,brasil-vai-escolher-cacas-suecos-,1110114,0.htm
http://www.naval.com.br/blog/2013/12/18/istoe-gripen-ng-e-o-novo-caca-brasileiro/
Shit just got real.
With this win, Gripen is now full time into the market and a truth is realized. Affordability...real affordability is now essential.
The aerospace world just got flipped on its head.
Congratulation to Saab for its persistence.
ReplyDeleteThis means the Sea Gripen will likely be developed for Brazil's carrier as well.
The Sea Gripen makes a perfect replacement for the F-35B, assuming the US Navy builds 280 m class LHDs to accommodate the Sea Gripen with TVC.
"US Navy builds 280 m class LHDs to accommodate the Sea Gripen with TVC"
DeleteOh, here comes the BS.
First off, the USN is NOT going to build a ship for a PAPER AIRPLANE|E, which is exactly what the "Sea Gripen" is.
Secondly, NO GRIPEN HAS EVER BEEN DESIGNED OR TESTED WITH TVC.
Also, Saab will NOT DEVELOP an entire jet for 1 24 jet order. EVERY other Navy on EARTH that has a carrier already has perfectly good jets for it.
Ironically the F35 is even more of a paper plane, when will it be ready for service, 2017 at IOC at the earliest, 2020 mass production being optimistic? They are already 1/4 a Billion USD each, what will they cost by 2020 provided a continuation of cost increases?
DeleteBy then a series of proper planes could have been designed and entering IOC whilst some of the presently scarce military funding could be devoted too much needed weapon development programs, life extension programs and modernization upgrades to hold out untill money is more readily available and/or saved up to replace old equipment.
http://news.yahoo.com/brazil-picks-sweden-39-gripen-fighter-jet-media-193705850.html
ReplyDeleteWill have to wait to hear about some details but good win for SAAB and for countries wishing for something affordable. The only problem is that Brazil is having problems with the Olympics and World Cup expenses so we will have to see if they really do end up buying it.
Sanity.
ReplyDeleteMaybe someday, every nation on earth will buy the GLORIOUS Gripen, a Swedish F-16 with a smaller payload, no AESA yet, and no IRST....
DeleteYet smaller RCS, smaller IR-output, better range, BIGGER payload, a rotable SELEX AESA with integrated IRST, helmet mounted display, 15 years younger, better turn radious, better maneuverability, better system links and super-cruise ability with full air-air weapons load (ie 5 Meteors, drop tank and 2 IRIS-T). Yeah sure. F-16... And the F-22 is just a F-15 without external tripple-racks or lightning pods?
DeleteDM They flew with an AESA last year.
Deletehttp://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/farnborough-saab-gripen-features-new-aesa-radar-373868/
Just curious but is that load out shown in the picture at all possible? I like it but it seems a bit much.
ReplyDeleteThe Gripen NG should have an increased payload... So, sure, its likely possible. Maybe not practical though.
DeleteExiting news.. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IBxDsECCEZc/TaqNFQsw3OI/AAAAAAAAFN8/0rElUyHqqf8/s1600/saab_jas_gripen_sexy_ladies.jpg
ReplyDeleteSaab rightfully deserved this contract. Lockheed locked up a vast majority of their market with fowl play and without a working product. Saab made a high performance aircraft that maximizes capability for dollars and is cheap as dirt to operate. It was pretty obvious the Super Hornet wasn't going to win because of the NSA scandal and the Rafale is a really expensive bird (at the Rafale's price is makes little reason to not just go all out and buy Sukhoi Flankers). Good job, Saab.
ReplyDeletethat's FOUL, not fowl, which is a bird.
DeleteLockheed was NEVER in this race, not seriously.
The Gripen is probably the "best" jet for Brazil, as it is cheap to operate, although it is NOT as capable as the Rafale.
David, weren't you the one trash talking the Gripen and saying that it was going to be out of production by 2020 a few days ago? Show's how full of shit you are.
DeleteThings change Andy.
DeleteNow I know the Rafale will be the one of of production by 2020, at least in France.
@David. Is that why Lockheed offered the F-16? Or why they tried to negotiate to get back into the F-X2 with the F-35?
DeleteNot as capable? So THAT's why the FAB, independently from political rants, ranked the Gripen in first place, not once, but twice with the Super Bug coming in at a close second and the Rafale dead last? Oh David, how you keep impressing us with your knowledge [or more lack thereof]
Basically the NSA spying scandal killed the US Military of any chance to sell their Military gear overseas. That spy scandal has set relations with the world back for a long time.
ReplyDeleteNicky
DeleteThe US still won't have any problem selling to its strongest allies even after the NSA fiasco. It is the neutral ones that the US will have a hard time winning over.
Basically, the NSA spying scandal has set American Foriegn relations back by decades. Which is why your seeing Brazil going with SAAB
DeleteGood news for the UK as well, much of the Gripen is British and if the Sea Gripen ever becomes a reality, it will be designed in the UK where Saab have based their Sea Gripen design centre although to be honest, much of the industrial issues with the NG have yet to be finalised so who knows where stuff will end up being designed and built!
ReplyDeleteHave posted a couple of articles on Brazil in the last few days
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2013/12/look-brazilian-navy/
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2013/12/brazil-fx-2-saab-gripen-decision-good-uk/
Well, it is just for the navalization design work only, unless UK buys some. Which is now impossible because of the failure to convert Queen Elizabeth class carriers..
DeleteDont know what you mean by that...Saab allways stated that the Sea Gripen will be compatible with Sky-Jump...or cats...with will work on bouth systems...
DeleteNuno Gomes
DeleteQueen Elizabeth class carriers don't have angled decks with arresting wires.
From wikipedia «On 30 September 2002, the MoD announced that the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force would operate the STOVL F-35B variant. Also announced was that the carriers would take the form of large, conventional carriers, initially adapted for STOVL operations. The carriers, expected to remain in service for fifty years, were designed for but not with catapults and arrestor wires. The carriers were thus planned to be "future proof", allowing them to operate a generation of CATOBAR aircraft beyond the F-35.» Feeling smart?
DeleteNuno Gomes
DeleteSeems that you are late on news. The British Defense Ministry tried to do exactly that in order to switch from F-35B to F-35C, but cancelled the plan after the shipyard said the conversion would cost $4.5 billion for both ships. So the UK reverted back to F-35B and the whole fiasco cost British tax payers $150 million.
Because of the CATs......putting just the wires would coust much lessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.......nobody is talking bout cats and removing the sky jump...just wires .............
DeleteNuno, the UK is 100% F-35B.
DeleteThe Sea Gripen isn't stealth, isn't STOVL, and carries less than an F-16.
It's ONLY advantage may be price, but since it doesn't even exist, who knows how much it will cost.
Great news for Saab. Terrible news for Boeing. Boeing really could have used a Brazilian Super Hornet sale in order to keep the line running. Right now, it looks like nothing short of a USN buy will save the Rhino.
ReplyDeleteSaab, on the other hand, is laughing. This could be the catalyst needed to get the Gripen into world class sales numbers. Unlike the JSF, it actually IS affordable. If its able to secure enough orders, its price could get even lower.
I bet the boys at LockMart are going to start looking over their shoulder.
The likelihood of Boeing military division getting out of fighter jet business has drastically increased with this outcome, unless Boeing wins the T-X contract to stay in business until the F/A-XX becomes ready in the 2030s.
DeleteAnd that will have a drastic consequence for the US national defense, because of the Lockheed Martin's tactical aircraft monopoly.
Boeing will win new F-15 orders in the Middle East and Singapore...maybe even in Korea.There are growing voices inside the USAF asking for more StrikeEagles...
DeleteIt will also win orders of the SuperHornet in Kuwait,Malasia and from the USN...maybe even from the USMC...If Canada backs out of the JSF the Hornet will also win there,and there is allways the chance that Australia will buy more...
Nuno Gomes
DeleteMiddle East : No.
Singapore : Maybe, but like 12 units or something
Korea : No. They have no money left and the air force is talking about buying 20 F/A-50s to fill the gap, not any of F-X contenders.
Malaysia : Super Hornet didn't win the first time(Su-30MKM won), so what are the chances the second time?
US Navy : I understand the US Navy wants to switch from the F-35C to the Advanced Hornet, but faces the opposition of the Secretary of Defense whose top priority is the preservation of the F-35 program.
Middle East yes:Qatar,Kuwait and UAE are evaluating the Eurofighter,Rafale,SuperHornet and the F-15...Qatar evaluated the F-15E and the Rafale in country in 2012.Full RFP is expected imminently...source:Combat Aircraft mounthly vol.14 no 12 December 2013 page 37...
DeleteSingapore ...yes...whats your point?
Korea:it may buy 20 or more...still wating to see what will happen
Malasia:from wikipedia«Boeing offered Malaysia the Super Hornets as part of a buy-back package for its existing F/A-18 Hornets in 2002. However, the Super Hornet procurement was halted in 2007 after the government decided to purchase the Sukhoi Su-30MKM instead. But RMAF Chief Gen. Datuk Nik Ismail Nik Mohamaed indicated that the RMAF had not planned to end procurement of the Super Hornets, instead saying that the air force needed such fighters»
USN-Letfirst see what happens with the tail hook of the JSF...
The Middle East could very well be a clean sweep for the Eurofighter. Saudi Arabia and Oman are already customers, and there's an argument to be made to share a common fighter. Not to mention Saudi push.
DeleteThe point could be moot anyway, as purchases might be delayed given recent talks with Iran.
Singapore: Don't hold your breath. They got plenty of new build F-15SGs and F-16s.
Malaysia: Not gonna happen. Certainly not in time.
USN: Too much pressure to go F-35. Every new Super Hornet would likely mean one less F-35C, we know how that math works. I think the Pentagon would rather mothball a carrier than drop F-35 numbers. Complete and utter failure of that tailhook would give the Super Hornet a stay of execution though, and possibly lead to an accelerated F/A-XX program.
Of course, it he tailhook is a "do or die" item. No tailhook, no F-35C. No F-35C, costs go up and the death spiral becomes a tornado in a trailer park.
the new tailhook has worked fine in testing.
DeleteI can't WAIT until the Super Hornet line is shut, at least to stop people for cheer-leading a 35 year old design.
Now Gripen is just manned substitute for UAV... Or poormans fighter.
ReplyDeleteIm glad to see gripen getting a sell, and brazil getting a gripen. Aside from a minor thrust to weight ratio issue in the original gripen its a great 4+gen fighter. Europe needs a successful fighter program and the way they are going to co-develop and build them in brazil is a good deal for the future strength of the americas.
ReplyDeleteBut not invisible...
ReplyDeleteReally is not that difficult for the Bfazilians
www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3-PeY-heho&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It is a great buy for us (brazilians), according to the FAB (Brazilian Air Force) have to spend.
ReplyDeleteBut I think the Gripen just replace the F-5 as more numerous and low-cost fighters, and as first-line fighters, we could have Super Hornets, JFS's... or why not Sukhoi's T-50 ?!?!
Brazil isn't rich, and the Gripens were the cheapest option.
DeleteAt least you guys are getting 36.
Brazil can afford what it makes a priority to afford.
DeleteThe biggest reason to not get a SU-T50 is that the Russians are dickheads about their targeting libraries, and once you piss off the Russians there are few alternative nations to procure ammunition and spare parts from, whether the UN is upset or not.
I think the Saab Gripen is best for FAB mainly because they will partially build them domestically and Embraer needs to modernize the Brazilian aviation industry going into the 21st century through cooperative experience gained though building a modern fighter aircraft.
I think once they build a Gripen they will be able to improve all of their other offerings.
I'm pretty sure Brazil isn't going to buy aircraft for the air force and navy at the same time, but when they do...I do not think developing a Sea Gripen NG is the best thing to do. It would cost a lot more than buying F-18 super hornets.
If the Brazilian Navy really wants to spent some money to expand their capabilities on par of that level of spending they should consider purchasing 4-6 Alvaro De Bazon class frigates from Spain, or 4-6 Sejong the Great destroyers from South Korea. That would enhance the naval anti-air capabilities a lot more than a Sea Gripen vs a F-18.
Something ain't right.
ReplyDeleteFrance's US$4 billion proposal for 36 Rafale fighter jets got dumped "for cost reason" in favor of 36 Gripen for $4.5 billion? (=$125m ea)
(taken from news sources)
I am guessing Saab sold their soul in the "offsets" aka Braziling manufacture of juicy new Saab radars and EXTREMELY cheap service and support contracts.
DeleteA little bird told me the Rafale is expensive to maintain.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThe burst is far from the Eurofighter, Rafale is superior in every way
DeleteIt's not a buy yer.
ReplyDeleteThe contract is expected to be finalized by December 2014, with the first aircraft to arrive 48 months later. The contract is to be complete by 2023.
Decisions are one thing -- contracts are quite another.
I was thinking the same thing given the way the Brazilians have gone about this.
DeleteVERY true.
DeleteJust look at the poor Rafale in India :(
Not matter what happens, I believe the Super Hornet is Dead in the Water now.
You said that the Gripen was dead in the top fighter/attack post earlier and now look what happened. I'm calling bullshit on your claims.
DeleteDonald just hates to be wrong.
DeleteHis opinions are like water, ever shifting.
I meant YOU, David.
DeleteAlso, the Super Hornet vs F-35C Fight Round Two is still not over. Since Boeing got snubbed by Brazil because of the administration's spying that will give them a few more talking points. There are already people blaming the Obama administration for the lost $4 billion plus dollars in work the USA would have gotten if Boeing won the contract. If the Super Hornet line closes, which currently employs more than 5,000 jobs based at the plant in St. Louis, then the lost jobs could end up being blamed on Obama's administration too as the Super Hornet was the clear favorite and the Brazilian orders would have kept the line open. I see many possibilities for the future right now and I have high hopes that the Navy will be allowed to buy more Super Hornets.
Well I hate to be a party-pooper but an order isn't an order until the contract is signed. We've had previous news in the media about South Korea "orders", for example, that weren't orders.Just PR.
ReplyDeleteI put together a list on F-35 -- any corrections please advise.
F-35 ordered and under production contract
Level 1
United Kingdom -- 138 planned, 48 'B' committed, 3 ordered
Level 2
Italy -- was 160, now 90, 6 ordered
Netherlands -- was 85, now 52-68, 2 ordered
Level 3
Australia -- was 100, will be less, 70, 2 ordered
Turkey -- 100 on hold, none ordered
Canada -- was 80, then 65 intended, none ordered
Norway -- was 48, now 52, 2 ordered
Denmark -- 48 reduced to 30, none ordered
orders are (were) in LRIP 3, 4, 6, & 7 with existing contracts
LRIP 8 to be negotiated 2014 so not included
Total F-35 ordered & under contract -- 15
projected foreign sales -- 730
NOTE: These are airplanes of a type that's still in development, with unsatisfactory reports on program management, quality control, reliability, performance and cost. Why would any country purchase such a product a full six years before the US even makes a production decision on it? Makes no sense.
your F-35 hatred is showing....
DeleteMaybe that is because the F35 is the worst american plane for its time since the cold war, well ok maybe it is better than Lockheads last cluster**** the starfighter which crashed and the F117 (which I guess makes it a pretty good plane for LHM), worse than all the planes it is supposedly 'replacing' in terms of the ammount of payload it can deliver, the range it can deliver, the speed of delivery, the cost and survivability. Virtually every aspect about the plane is flawed and inferrior to all existing US and western planes in their respective jobs, many of which are multi-role in nature. There is litterally nothing in this plane which is better than the planes it is to 'replace'.
DeleteNot to mention its like a decade behind schedule and more than 5x overbudget now right, or is it more? Not to mention the flight charachteristics and stealth have been dowgraded, critical fire supression systems cut for weight savings etc..etc.. I tell you what if you want a bad, overpriced, underdelivering plane with debilitating restrictions for the usage then LHM is your company (F16 excluded, it wasnt designed by LHM).
GAO:
DeleteThe program started manufacturing aircraft before designs were stable, before establishing mature manufacturing processes, and before sufficiently testing the design and aircraft performance.
Here's the latest video on the F-35C Carrier Variant.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACWzMo02uqs
You'll see the variant, but you won't see a carrier.
They are currently incompatible.
The tailhook won't grab the wire.
It's high-tech. Lockheed hasn't figured out how to do it.
What good is a plane that can take off but can't land?
Nobody would miss the plane, but think of the pilot.
LM executive compensation ($68.53 mn) went up 18.5% last year.
The company raised its quarterly dividend by 16% to $1.33 a share.
It was the 11th consecutive annual double-digit increase of the Lockheed Martin quarterly dividend rate,
Who says building crap doesn't pay.
Don't be dogging a F-117. That plane was designed way back in the early '70's. Dogging a nighthawk is like saying the P-51 mustang wasn't a good airplane. When you do that you're comparing apples with oranges. The nighthawk was a hell of a lot cheaper than the B-2 and did a very important mission very effectively against the radar systems of the era.
DeleteIt carries a mere two 2000IB bombs at subsonic speeds, carries no air-air payload, decoys or other counter measures, it is extremely expensive to operate and is only 'stealthy' at night. And the pilots whom used them to bomb baghdad in Desert Storm said they were petrified when they opened the bomb doors because it ruins the low RCS allowing for a missile lock, which is how they got shot down over yugoslavia.
DeleteMeanwhile the B1 produced during the same time period is vastly supperior with a much higher payload and a much more cost effective plane, especiallty if taking into consideration external weapon pylons which were restricted under START and the proposed B1R upgrade indicating its upgradability. Also the B1 is still in service today, the F117 got retired. Also the F111 had been in service for about two decades by the time the F117 came into service, and I consider the F111 to be a much better plane, a real fighter plane whereas the F117 relies blindly on stealth that doesn't work because of the bomb bay doors. Even the F15 was in service before the F117, and they are still in service today
So no I am not saying the F117 is bad because it is an old plane that cant compete with the latest and greatest, but because for its time it was absoloutely rubbish. And it is very doubtrfull whether the F117 could have survived soviet air defences, they should have been retired when the Bosnians proved the aircrafts only survival feature, 'stealth' didn't work.
The point I am getting at is LM has a well established history of desinging very, very bad planes.
no Jacobite, it was made by General Dynamics, which the far more successful Lockheed bought and designed and tested at the same Fort Worth plant where the F-35 has been designed and tested.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, let's not let reality get into this discussion. No doubt this announcement (not order...) from Brazil is the sign of the end of the F-35.
Regardless all the excitement for the announcement, I think Brazil is making a big mistake.Their original plan was to have 100 airplanes to be spread all over the huge country to avoid be wiped out in single attacks to their main bases, or some of them to be projected with their carrier protected by their new conventional subs and future atomic ones.Are they going to built 100 short legs Gripens?With 36 Rafales or SH (the best option in my opinion) they would be able to cover the continent with almost double of armament, not just their borders.Venezuela has Su-30, Peru Mirage2000 and Chile F-16 (All of them with longer range)With this decision Brazil is giving up their intentions to become a real military power in the Region, contrary what Venezuela and Chile really are at this moment.
ReplyDeleteSuperrhinoceront
DeleteIt doesn't really matter which jet Brazil chooses because Brazil faces little external threats.
And another thing to consider is that women are highly emotional and tends to make emotional decisions. The men at NSA and White House may have already forgotten about the wiretap fiasco, but no the woman at the Palácio da Alvorada
Its just the first fase. The initial 36 fighters, will replace the Mirage 2000 as first line of defence of the federal capital, Brasilia.
DeleteIn the second fase, in a total of 128, the F-X(Gripen) will replace the A-1M and the F-5M.
Are greats numbers, just looking to South América
Just a question, when are they planning retire those ariplanes and to built all those Gripens?Any way, it looks ok as a pure defensive strategy to have them spred all over Brazil, but they don’t give you a lot of projection like for example the Chilean F-16 that count even with tankers.Just Chile now has like 50 F-16 and they are planning to buy more, Peru has like 50 Mig29/Su-25/Mirage2000 and they are planning to buy new airframes, maybe the Spanish Typhoons and Venezuela has Su-30. That’s a lot of power around Brazil.
DeleteFirst, we probably took some Gripens C/D to cover the retirament of ours Mirage 2000.
DeleteAnd the F-5, will be phased out from 2017
Peru has 1 sqd of Mig-29's, 1 of Mirage 2000 and Su-25 is an atack plane, and dont have money to mantain those planes... imagine to buy Typhoons ?!?!
Chile is a number 1 strength in our continent. Ok I agree. But we have no border with them ... And do not forget. Only 12 F-16 are new. The rest of them are F-16A upgraded to MLU.
Alfredo, I guess you can read Spaish, so close than Portuguese. I still thinking the Gripen is to short leg for your county-continent. You should read this.
Deletehttp://www.taringa.net/comunidades/fanaticos-rafale/6080876/El-Gripen-NG-un-dolor-de-cabeza-para-Suiza.html
They also lost a great opportunity long time ago when they didn't take the offer to built completely the more capable Mirage2000 in Brazil. The M2000BR could even take some ellectronic improvements from the Rafale like the Aesa Radar
ReplyDeletewww.youtube.com/watch?v=3TNV5T8dYus&feature=youtube_gdata_player