Looks like a highly capable main battle tank. The use of the 120 rifled cannon is curious to me since the Russian standard is 125mm smooth and the Nato standard is 120mm smooth. Although given India's history of "different just to be different" to differentiate India from any "imperial power" it is understandable.
they're definitely getting better. what has me focused is on their next infantry fighting vehicle. they rejected the BMP-3 and are developing their own. i've seen some of the models and it looks great. i can't wait to see it on the street though.
The Russians are /were quite firm about standardization. They used to use Naval large calibre guns ( I forget the model D12T? but I may be wrong tanks and their take was that at working ranges of Their operational scenario - less than 700 mts- the terrain gets in the way usually- there is bugger all to choose between rifled ans smooth bore. If you are planning to build in tens of thousands it makes sense. In fact our "Gubmint" babus failure as weapons designers has been partly because they never understood the "economics" of technology selection so often the "best" ws chosen when that "best" was certainly better but not really necessary.
About the Rifled Gun. When development started on this tank, it started with the L-7 105mm rifled gun. Thereon, we just made it 120mm. I dont think the army was that impressed with the early models of the 2A46 that we had on the T-72. I'll have to check up with my dad. He was there when the transition from the Centurion to the T-72 was made.
You're right. Think of the most important thing we have researched and built with this tank. Indigenous Advanced Armour, specialized alloy steel and the ability to produce a modern accurate gun barrel and forgings, ERA panels etc. A factory of MTU producing the 1400hp engine in India itself. Most importantly, a chance for a significant number of soldiers and officers to re-orient themselves back to 4 man tanks and the old British Style of tank warfare.
In the 1971 war for Liberation of Bangladesh, India and Pakistan were both using the T-55 in Russian/Chinese avatars. Both with 100mm guns. We actually had to snap on artificial fume extractors in the middle of the gun barrel to differentiate ours from theirs. So equal has our armour been to theirs that the Arjun is one hell of a chance for us to break free of this deliberate self inflicted "Equality".
Otherwise its going to be the same old Russian T verses the Chinese Type and the Ukrainian T.
Its hated for a very different reason. For a weapon that has not yet entered combat, Hate is not justified. Its the politics behind it all thats the cause for hate or just plain Indefference. Like in the US, whenever people sit in a committee to decide death penalty, they only select Pro-Death people......Similarly in India, whenever the DGMF or Director General Mechanized Forces post has to be filled, they will find some Soviet Influenced person for the job. So when the Chief of Army Staff, usually an Infantry officer delegates the Armored Corps decision making to DGMF and asks for his opinion......you know exactly what opinion he will give.
To clarify the confusion over the Arjun Armor..... What you have is a Shield of Tungsten Carbide/Depleted Uranium to break/deform the tip of the incomming round. Then you need Specialized steel behind it. If you have observed buildings, they always have a wire mesh between the concrete. The Arjuns Composite Steel Armor is just like that. A mesh of some secret Ceramic material Tubes goes between the Steel Armor. And then on the inside, you have a range of materials to use as spall liner or flack protectors. So your basic armor becomes 3 layered because of 3 different materials being used. Add to that ERA panels and that new Active Protection System and its all good. We have already fired the 2A46 gun of the T-72 on this tank. Also the tried and tested L-7. Good results is all that I can say. Most Paki tanks have those above guns.
Everyone talks about chobham armor as if it is cutting edge. The type of armor used isn't as important as what that armor can actually defend against.
Think of the Arjun family of tanks makes more sense in the British tradition, including what I thought was a strange choice of a rifled main cannon. The Arjun uses rifled main gun like a Chieftan or Challenger 1. Similar mass to a Chieftan or Challenger 1. Considering India's ties to Britain, it makes sense that their engineering would be similar.
It remains to be seen if Arjun family can be expected to have the same combat record as the Chieftan and Challenger, but those platforms did very well for themselves. All for a reported cost per unit on par with the cheapest T-90 variant.
And I bet the crew inside the tank will be much more comfortable. Soviet tanks are notorious for poor ergonomics.
No free lunch. Sov-Ru-tech tanks are in-part lighter because of the 1 less crew from the autoloader. I always get a feeling that there are a glut of weapons platforms in the InDF and that some standardization could help lower costs and have a less complex supply chain. For example, I would want only one MBT.
Eric, I completly get your point about the 1 MBT fleet. Its just that we have not had the best of circumstances to get a 1 MBT fleet. Our Nuclear tests in the 1970's and 1998 put sanctions on us where the only country dealing with us was Russia. Our own officer corps position is also deeply divided between the Soviet style and the British Style with super heavy tanks. All the talk about the arjun being too heavy and that Tanks in India above 50 tons being not suitable is basically crap as the Centurion, which we used all over the sub continent was on the wrong side of 50 with full load. If we had bridges and infrastructure and more importantly men capable of using 55 ton monsters back then, surely a Rising India should not bitch about a tank in the moden day which weighs 68. Especially when USA, Israel, UK, Germany, Canada, Holland etc. have all used tanks of similar weight a thousand miles away from their country. We cant use these tanks on our doorsteps ?.......Hogwash.
The autoloader sucks, the fixed rate of fire is slower than a human loader. The loss of a crew member to the autoloader sucks when stopped for the night and you have one less person to kick out to an LPOP.
I do wonder as to the eventual production numbers of the Arjun 2. I suspect not a lot. I also wonder as to the practicalities of fielding the MBT and also the operational readiness. It looks like a complex piece of machinery, much more so than the T-72s and T-90s. Would the Indian army be able to maintain them?
Chuang Shyue Chou, the Arjun isn't going to top the sales chart. Expect not more than 500 built just to that DRDO and our Tank Plant in Avadi can break even and justify their investments. The tank in itself ins complex because it has some never before used equipments which the Indian Soldier has to get used to for the first time. But better now than later.
Thats there because the tank in the picture is a DRDO Prototype and is carrying all the equipment that can be fitted on the tank. Its that or someone wants to use this tank as a giant battering ram.
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Looks like a highly capable main battle tank. The use of the 120 rifled cannon is curious to me since the Russian standard is 125mm smooth and the Nato standard is 120mm smooth. Although given India's history of "different just to be different" to differentiate India from any "imperial power" it is understandable.
ReplyDeletethey're definitely getting better. what has me focused is on their next infantry fighting vehicle. they rejected the BMP-3 and are developing their own. i've seen some of the models and it looks great. i can't wait to see it on the street though.
DeleteThe Challenger 2 has a 120mm rifled gun. Rifled guns perform better with certain types of shell.
DeleteThe Russians are /were quite firm about standardization. They used to use Naval large calibre guns ( I forget the model D12T? but I may be wrong tanks and their take was that at working ranges of Their operational scenario - less than 700 mts- the terrain gets in the way usually- there is bugger all to choose between rifled ans smooth bore. If you are planning to build in tens of thousands it makes sense. In fact our "Gubmint" babus failure as weapons designers has been partly because they never understood the "economics" of technology selection so often the "best" ws chosen when that "best" was certainly better but not really necessary.
DeleteAbout the Rifled Gun. When development started on this tank, it started with the L-7 105mm rifled gun. Thereon, we just made it 120mm. I dont think the army was that impressed with the early models of the 2A46 that we had on the T-72. I'll have to check up with my dad. He was there when the transition from the Centurion to the T-72 was made.
DeleteThere are many problems with the Arjun, especially its 65 ton weight which makes it difficult to transport to frontline, and operate in rough terrain.
ReplyDeleteWhile Arjun itself is a failure, Indians could use it as a stepping stone in producing the next version.
You're right. Think of the most important thing we have researched and built with this tank. Indigenous Advanced Armour, specialized alloy steel and the ability to produce a modern accurate gun barrel and forgings, ERA panels etc.
DeleteA factory of MTU producing the 1400hp engine in India itself.
Most importantly, a chance for a significant number of soldiers and officers to re-orient themselves back to 4 man tanks and the old British Style of tank warfare.
In the 1971 war for Liberation of Bangladesh, India and Pakistan were both using the T-55 in Russian/Chinese avatars. Both with 100mm guns. We actually had to snap on artificial fume extractors in the middle of the gun barrel to differentiate ours from theirs. So equal has our armour been to theirs that the Arjun is one hell of a chance for us to break free of this deliberate self inflicted "Equality".
Otherwise its going to be the same old Russian T verses the Chinese Type and the Ukrainian T.
It's still a hated white elephant by the Indian Army.
ReplyDeleteIt's too heavy and expensive, and the Indian Army would rather have the T-90MS.
Also, the P-8A is broken :)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-23/boeing-surveillance-plane-found-not-effective-for-mission.html
Its hated for a very different reason. For a weapon that has not yet entered combat, Hate is not justified.
DeleteIts the politics behind it all thats the cause for hate or just plain Indefference.
Like in the US, whenever people sit in a committee to decide death penalty, they only select Pro-Death people......Similarly in India, whenever the DGMF or Director General Mechanized Forces post has to be filled, they will find some Soviet Influenced person for the job. So when the Chief of Army Staff, usually an Infantry officer delegates the Armored Corps decision making to DGMF and asks for his opinion......you know exactly what opinion he will give.
But their eletronics is not worth a damn they doesnt have chobham, their APFSDS round is weak since they integrated muzzle launched anti-tank missile.
ReplyDeleteAnyway good counter-insurgency tank on the same level as T-72 family.
To clarify the confusion over the Arjun Armor..... What you have is a Shield of Tungsten Carbide/Depleted Uranium to break/deform the tip of the incomming round. Then you need Specialized steel behind it. If you have observed buildings, they always have a wire mesh between the concrete. The Arjuns Composite Steel Armor is just like that. A mesh of some secret Ceramic material Tubes goes between the Steel Armor. And then on the inside, you have a range of materials to use as spall liner or flack protectors. So your basic armor becomes 3 layered because of 3 different materials being used.
DeleteAdd to that ERA panels and that new Active Protection System and its all good.
We have already fired the 2A46 gun of the T-72 on this tank. Also the tried and tested L-7. Good results is all that I can say.
Most Paki tanks have those above guns.
Muito bonito!
ReplyDeleteEveryone talks about chobham armor as if it is cutting edge. The type of armor used isn't as important as what that armor can actually defend against.
ReplyDeleteThink of the Arjun family of tanks makes more sense in the British tradition, including what I thought was a strange choice of a rifled main cannon. The Arjun uses rifled main gun like a Chieftan or Challenger 1. Similar mass to a Chieftan or Challenger 1. Considering India's ties to Britain, it makes sense that their engineering would be similar.
It remains to be seen if Arjun family can be expected to have the same combat record as the Chieftan and Challenger, but those platforms did very well for themselves. All for a reported cost per unit on par with the cheapest T-90 variant.
And I bet the crew inside the tank will be much more comfortable. Soviet tanks are notorious for poor ergonomics.
No free lunch. Sov-Ru-tech tanks are in-part lighter because of the 1 less crew from the autoloader. I always get a feeling that there are a glut of weapons platforms in the InDF and that some standardization could help lower costs and have a less complex supply chain. For example, I would want only one MBT.
ReplyDeleteEric, I completly get your point about the 1 MBT fleet. Its just that we have not had the best of circumstances to get a 1 MBT fleet. Our Nuclear tests in the 1970's and 1998 put sanctions on us where the only country dealing with us was Russia. Our own officer corps position is also deeply divided between the Soviet style and the British Style with super heavy tanks.
DeleteAll the talk about the arjun being too heavy and that Tanks in India above 50 tons being not suitable is basically crap as the Centurion, which we used all over the sub continent was on the wrong side of 50 with full load. If we had bridges and infrastructure and more importantly men capable of using 55 ton monsters back then, surely a Rising India should not bitch about a tank in the moden day which weighs 68. Especially when USA, Israel, UK, Germany, Canada, Holland etc. have all used tanks of similar weight a thousand miles away from their country. We cant use these tanks on our doorsteps ?.......Hogwash.
The autoloader sucks, the fixed rate of fire is slower than a human loader. The loss of a crew member to the autoloader sucks when stopped for the night and you have one less person to kick out to an LPOP.
ReplyDeleteI do wonder as to the eventual production numbers of the Arjun 2. I suspect not a lot. I also wonder as to the practicalities of fielding the MBT and also the operational readiness. It looks like a complex piece of machinery, much more so than the T-72s and T-90s. Would the Indian army be able to maintain them?
ReplyDeleteChuang Shyue Chou, the Arjun isn't going to top the sales chart. Expect not more than 500 built just to that DRDO and our Tank Plant in Avadi can break even and justify their investments. The tank in itself ins complex because it has some never before used equipments which the Indian Soldier has to get used to for the first time. But better now than later.
DeleteThis tank comes standard with a mine plow?
ReplyDeleteThats there because the tank in the picture is a DRDO Prototype and is carrying all the equipment that can be fitted on the tank. Its that or someone wants to use this tank as a giant battering ram.
DeleteThough to enemy infantry it will look like a big sabertoothed mammoth charging down on them.
Delete