he is pushing for it now. its under development as we speak. and for good reason. that YJ-12 is launched outside AEGIS and Standard missile defense and i'll double check but it will (if some reports are to be believed) even tax the combat air patrol distance that can be provided.
Launch is less than 300km and the missile is one big giant lumbering target flying at altitude shinning radar all the way until the last 40km of its run. Most supersonic ASM don't break the sound barrier except in the very last death charge of their flight. Modern radars will pickup these lumbering 50-60's era bombers way outside the bombers strike range and have interceptors inbound. Those interceptors can intercept both the bomber and/or its launched ASM. If the aircraft survive the air cap the missiles themselves will be subsonic lumbering targets within a large swath of aegis range. Not the beat all game changer by any means, at best a cold war retread.
China is growing and looking to contest US not just in their zone on land & inside the first island chain but also on our turf outside the first island chain. Weapons like this will make it possible for China to sow havoc as a spoiler if nothing else sinking cargo/tankers in the indian ocean and Pacific that are not escorted. Weapons like these ensure a war with China will not be containable and isolated to a small area. Go look at the shipping heading in and out of Asia assuming even 2/3rds of it Chinese (not that much) and imagine trying to escort all of those ships in and out so our allies economy don't collapse with China's. Another little reported under the radar Chinese effort is to build rail, roads, and pipelines slowly rebuilding the silk road into and through the stans.
what are you basing this info on? everything i've read is that its supersonic throughout its flight regime and then hits mach 4 in terminal. i've read nothing that says its subsonic in any respect. additionally why are we always discounting the skill of a potential adversary. if an arm chair admiral knows that high altitude flight will show up on aegis radars then so do they. i can see a low altitude run to point, a pop up to launch and then a dive back to deck for egress.
totally agree that a minor skrimish will lead to a major war. i don't believe it will initially involve the US but i see us getting dragged into it.
lastly, i'm amazed that people seem to think that globalization will have a bearing on any of this. that whole scheme is breaking down before our eyes.
Sol what has become apparent to me in over 20 years now reviewing the field of naval warfare it appears the West's navies aren't really interesting in sinking ships. You could argue on a global level the only potential adversaries are China and Russia who the West outnumber at sea. When I say West I include Australia, Singapore, Japan, South Korea. Here in the UK it is all soft kill and call the US if needs be. Your USN seems obsessed with bombing stuff shoreside. Understandable in a way I suppose. But as the cost of these anti-ship missiles is only at best a few per cent of the ship's total cost you would just fit them anyway. Makes me wonder why the West puts anything to sea that is smaller than a carrier and bigger than an OPV.
US and European navies aren't, but the JMSDF and ROK Navy are working hard on perfecting their own supersonic anti-ship missiles, because they make the most effective deterrent to a Chinese CBG and each other's fleet.
While the current XASM-3 is kinda weak, the next one should be a monster, based on the weapons bay dimension of the F-3 intended to house it. The ROK antiship missile burrows propulsion system from the Yakhont missile, but is much smaller at 1.6 tons(nearly half of Russian Yakhont) and has a range of 300 km.
The MoD are currently spending £1.2b per boat on the Royal Navy's ability to sink ships... In all the hype of supersonic missiles (and super-cavitating rockets) it's almost easy to forget a spread of modern, heavyweight, fully autonomous torpedoes with the ability to make their own tactical decisions...
torpedoes don't have the range to be viable in my opinion. what are we talking? less than 100 km? that puts the sub at the mercy of every ship in the fleet. and thats if you don't have an aircraft carrier. almost every destroyer carries a helicopter thats capable of locating and attacking subs and when you fire a torpedo you've just given them a reverse azimuth to your location.
It's significantly less than 100km range. I'd still wager good money on a sub making the first strike connect, and even getting away with it afterwards.
It's rumoured to have a range of 400 KM. So it's definitely not out of the range of CAP fighters. The difficult part is the detection and interception. It's supposed to cruise at Mach 1.25 after launch at 15 meters off the ocean surface, then it will rise to a height of 40 KM and then dive down at Mach 4. At that speed it will be impossible to intercept.
I would take those rumours with a grain of salt of course.
why would you take those rumors with a grain of salt? its not outside the technological capabilities of the Chinese in my opinion. additionally i don't know the distance that CAPs are conducted from a carrier but i do know it requires extended time on station. in my mind i don't see a CAP being more than 200 km from the ship. i could easily be wrong.
We have never seen this missile in testing or on-board any aircraft capable of acting as its carrier, despite it being rumored to be in development for more than a decade now. Rumors regarding Chinese missile have a history of over-exaggeration by fanboys. That pic showing the H-6G carrying two YJ-12s is likely a fake, or just mockups. The missile in picture looks exactly the same as previous leaks from years back, exactly. That raises some doubts about its authenticity.
Furthermore, suppose this missile does exist. Its only viable carrier for now and the near future is limited to the H-6 (possibly only the K series, not the G as shown in pic). There are rumors of a JH-7B Fighter Bomber being developed to specifically be able to carry this, we shall see if that pans out.
CAP missions are customized per the threat environment, if a CBG is feel its under threat then it should take the necessary precautions. So if you and I know about it, you can bet that the USN knows about it.
Just a little aside, back in 2012, there was a urgent update made to many of the 7th fleets defense systems to "counter certain threats". There were never any details given, but it could be response to the perceived threat this missile posed.
Actually you can't assume that, because if you launch 20 antiship missiles flying in way-point modes set to attack all at the same time, it would not be possible for the Aegis defenders to shoot all them down; some of the missiles will break through and hit the carriers.
They don't mention the F-35 directly, but the defense ministry officials need to conclude a tech transfer agreement with somebody very soon because the full scale development of the KFX starts THIS YEAR for a target IOC of 2023.
It is like the buyer and the seller A negotiating over a contract at a train station 5 minutes before the departure, with two other sellers waving their own contracts shouting that they would give 100% the buyer wants. There is not much time left for the seller A.
Its not a mock-up the old aircraft has been around forever, and the missile has been around for almost 20 years. The relative danger of systems like this has everything to do with geography, you get 500 miles from the PRC coastline and all this stuff gets a lot easier to deal with. If you hangout with the allies in large numbers then you're dealing with high volume saturation attacks.
Or it's mock-up, Chinese love to show mock-ups...
ReplyDeleteRussia has supersonic ASMs since the 1960s...why is this a mock-up?
ReplyDeleteIf I were the CNO, I'd be pushing for F/A-XX now.
ReplyDeletehe is pushing for it now. its under development as we speak. and for good reason. that YJ-12 is launched outside AEGIS and Standard missile defense and i'll double check but it will (if some reports are to be believed) even tax the combat air patrol distance that can be provided.
ReplyDeleteLaunch is less than 300km and the missile is one big giant lumbering target flying at altitude shinning radar all the way until the last 40km of its run. Most supersonic ASM don't break the sound barrier except in the very last death charge of their flight. Modern radars will pickup these lumbering 50-60's era bombers way outside the bombers strike range and have interceptors inbound. Those interceptors can intercept both the bomber and/or its launched ASM. If the aircraft survive the air cap the missiles themselves will be subsonic lumbering targets within a large swath of aegis range. Not the beat all game changer by any means, at best a cold war retread.
DeleteChina is growing and looking to contest US not just in their zone on land & inside the first island chain but also on our turf outside the first island chain. Weapons like this will make it possible for China to sow havoc as a spoiler if nothing else sinking cargo/tankers in the indian ocean and Pacific that are not escorted. Weapons like these ensure a war with China will not be containable and isolated to a small area. Go look at the shipping heading in and out of Asia assuming even 2/3rds of it Chinese (not that much) and imagine trying to escort all of those ships in and out so our allies economy don't collapse with China's. Another little reported under the radar Chinese effort is to build rail, roads, and pipelines slowly rebuilding the silk road into and through the stans.
what are you basing this info on? everything i've read is that its supersonic throughout its flight regime and then hits mach 4 in terminal. i've read nothing that says its subsonic in any respect. additionally why are we always discounting the skill of a potential adversary. if an arm chair admiral knows that high altitude flight will show up on aegis radars then so do they. i can see a low altitude run to point, a pop up to launch and then a dive back to deck for egress.
Deletetotally agree that a minor skrimish will lead to a major war. i don't believe it will initially involve the US but i see us getting dragged into it.
lastly, i'm amazed that people seem to think that globalization will have a bearing on any of this. that whole scheme is breaking down before our eyes.
Sol what has become apparent to me in over 20 years now reviewing the field of naval warfare it appears the West's navies aren't really interesting in sinking ships. You could argue on a global level the only potential adversaries are China and Russia who the West outnumber at sea. When I say West I include Australia, Singapore, Japan, South Korea. Here in the UK it is all soft kill and call the US if needs be. Your USN seems obsessed with bombing stuff shoreside. Understandable in a way I suppose. But as the cost of these anti-ship missiles is only at best a few per cent of the ship's total cost you would just fit them anyway. Makes me wonder why the West puts anything to sea that is smaller than a carrier and bigger than an OPV.
DeleteSteve
DeleteUS and European navies aren't, but the JMSDF and ROK Navy are working hard on perfecting their own supersonic anti-ship missiles, because they make the most effective deterrent to a Chinese CBG and each other's fleet.
While the current XASM-3 is kinda weak, the next one should be a monster, based on the weapons bay dimension of the F-3 intended to house it. The ROK antiship missile burrows propulsion system from the Yakhont missile, but is much smaller at 1.6 tons(nearly half of Russian Yakhont) and has a range of 300 km.
The MoD are currently spending £1.2b per boat on the Royal Navy's ability to sink ships... In all the hype of supersonic missiles (and super-cavitating rockets) it's almost easy to forget a spread of modern, heavyweight, fully autonomous torpedoes with the ability to make their own tactical decisions...
Deletetorpedoes don't have the range to be viable in my opinion. what are we talking? less than 100 km? that puts the sub at the mercy of every ship in the fleet. and thats if you don't have an aircraft carrier. almost every destroyer carries a helicopter thats capable of locating and attacking subs and when you fire a torpedo you've just given them a reverse azimuth to your location.
DeleteIt's significantly less than 100km range. I'd still wager good money on a sub making the first strike connect, and even getting away with it afterwards.
DeleteIt's rumoured to have a range of 400 KM. So it's definitely not out of the range of CAP fighters. The difficult part is the detection and interception. It's supposed to cruise at Mach 1.25 after launch at 15 meters off the ocean surface, then it will rise to a height of 40 KM and then dive down at Mach 4. At that speed it will be impossible to intercept.
ReplyDeleteI would take those rumours with a grain of salt of course.
why would you take those rumors with a grain of salt? its not outside the technological capabilities of the Chinese in my opinion. additionally i don't know the distance that CAPs are conducted from a carrier but i do know it requires extended time on station. in my mind i don't see a CAP being more than 200 km from the ship. i could easily be wrong.
DeleteWe have never seen this missile in testing or on-board any aircraft capable of acting as its carrier, despite it being rumored to be in development for more than a decade now. Rumors regarding Chinese missile have a history of over-exaggeration by fanboys. That pic showing the H-6G carrying two YJ-12s is likely a fake, or just mockups. The missile in picture looks exactly the same as previous leaks from years back, exactly. That raises some doubts about its authenticity.
DeleteFurthermore, suppose this missile does exist. Its only viable carrier for now and the near future is limited to the H-6 (possibly only the K series, not the G as shown in pic). There are rumors of a JH-7B Fighter Bomber being developed to specifically be able to carry this, we shall see if that pans out.
CAP missions are customized per the threat environment, if a CBG is feel its under threat then it should take the necessary precautions. So if you and I know about it, you can bet that the USN knows about it.
Just a little aside, back in 2012, there was a urgent update made to many of the 7th fleets defense systems to "counter certain threats". There were never any details given, but it could be response to the perceived threat this missile posed.
Discount the carriers for a moment, assume they can be defended by CAP and AEGIS
ReplyDeleteWhat about EVERYTHING else?
A Perry 60miles in front of the Carrier is a **** load more vulnerable.
Never mind an oiler, a fast troop transport, or anything but a carrier battle group or a submarine.
Actually you can't assume that, because if you launch 20 antiship missiles flying in way-point modes set to attack all at the same time, it would not be possible for the Aegis defenders to shoot all them down; some of the missiles will break through and hit the carriers.
Deletecan you e-mail me an article with the latest F-35 info you gave me?
DeleteSolomon,
Deletehttp://khnews.kheraldm.com/view.php?ud=20140105000227&md=20140106003030_AT
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/01/116_149209.html
They don't mention the F-35 directly, but the defense ministry officials need to conclude a tech transfer agreement with somebody very soon because the full scale development of the KFX starts THIS YEAR for a target IOC of 2023.
It is like the buyer and the seller A negotiating over a contract at a train station 5 minutes before the departure, with two other sellers waving their own contracts shouting that they would give 100% the buyer wants. There is not much time left for the seller A.
Its not a mock-up the old aircraft has been around forever, and the missile has been around for almost 20 years. The relative danger of systems like this has everything to do with geography, you get 500 miles from the PRC coastline and all this stuff gets a lot easier to deal with. If you hangout with the allies in large numbers then you're dealing with high volume saturation attacks.
ReplyDelete