Thanks Slowman for the article!
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via Korea Herald.
A force that has a dire need for fighter jets now...is supposedly buying F-35's...is now about to start a develop program to produce its own fighter and have it into service by 2023.
Tell me again how the F-35 will soon equal the cost of a 4th gen fighter.
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via Korea Herald.
South Korea plans to kick-start a long-delayed program to build fighter jets despite lingering skepticism over its feasibility and technological barriers, officials said Sunday.Interesting.
The ambitious project, called KFX or Boramae, is aimed at producing F-16-class fighter jets. The military aims to introduce the first model by 2023 and deploy 120 units over the following several years, officials said.
“The Boramae project will kick into high gear this year to develop 120 Korean-made fighter planes,” a senior military official said on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter.
The Defense Ministry secured 20 billion won ($19.1 million) for the program this year.
The initiative was incepted in 2000 to replace the military’s aging F-4 and F-5 warplanes with homegrown ones starting 2020, but has dragged on due largely to controversy over its feasibility.
The Joint Chiefs of Staff Council has decided to shorten the period of the project from the original 20 odd years, as the Air Force faces a shortage of about 100 fighters in 2019, when nearly all the F-4s and F-5s are expected to be decommissioned.
The Air Force says it needs at least 430 fighter jets to prepare for possible wartime operations ― some 100 high-end, 200 middle-range and 100 low-end models.
In late November, the military decided to buy 40 F-35 stealth jets from Lockheed Martin for deployment from 2018-21.
With Seoul seeking more sophisticated technologies, observers raised the possibility of a purchase of 20 additional warplanes from Boeing or the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company, which displayed more willingness to share their expertise than Lockheed.
A force that has a dire need for fighter jets now...is supposedly buying F-35's...is now about to start a develop program to produce its own fighter and have it into service by 2023.
Tell me again how the F-35 will soon equal the cost of a 4th gen fighter.
How it is relevant to the F-35 is that the Korean defense ministry is now running on an extremely tight schedule and cannot afford to any further delays, and needs to conclude the tech transfer agreement for missing pieces of technology(Out of 50 major sub systems, 17 needs foreign assistance) ASAP, but the US DoD's FMS negotiators have been reluctant to do so, and were threatening to scale back what little they offered relative to Boeing and EADS during the bidding process, citing a reduced purchase from 60 to 40.
ReplyDeleteRight now, both Boeing and EADS are offering to honor their existing tech transfer terms as long as Korea buys 40, and the Korean government might go with this 40 + 20 option instead if the negotiation with Lockheed falls apart or the study concludes that they could not buy 40 F-35(Just the airframe and engines) for $7.3 billion. Plus EADS has a Typhoon lease offer on top of that as well.
Nineteen million dollars, about 10% of the cost of one F-35, on a thirteen-year-old exercise is an ambitious project? I need to look at this. (And I thought the Pentagon was screwed up.)
ReplyDeleteThat's the down payment to contractors, no different than US weapons programs with budgets of $20~50 millions during first year, etc. The current development cost estimation is $8.5 billion for airframe + subsystem integration. Engine is off the shelf and AESA, avionics are paid for by other programs and not included in $8.5 billion(including those in the program would mean they have to be shared with Indonesia and possibly other partner nations which Korea doesn't want to), but their integration into the airframe is.
DeleteWhat's important here is that the KFX is surprisingly on a tight schedule, so this affects F-X outcome.
I gotta be honest guys, if I was a south korean, and I was about to build an domestic fighter program. I wouldn't screw around with anything less than an F-35. Typhoon is nice but its a 1980's european design. So its really nice if its been in your airfield for 15 years already. If I was shooting to build a new fighter plane the first thing I would do is buy the latest design I could get my hands on. Rip it apart, reverse engineer everything I liked and innovate everything I needed to change.
ReplyDeleteI remember when I was a little kid looking at drawings of the typhoon before it was even prototyped thinking it was so cool. I'd say wow dude we need on of those in america lol. so don't think I'm just dogging the plane. its just that I'm not a kid anymore, its 25 years later and the world of aviation has changed.
DeleteKeith Turk Jr.
Delete> Rip it apart, reverse engineer everything I liked and innovate everything I needed to change.
Doing something like that is strictly prohibited with a real time monitoring. The US can actually tell which panels are open at any given time and there are multiple security features to prevent that from happening.
news report
DeleteAnalysts say the possibility remains that Seoul could purchase the remaining 20 aircraft from other companies such as Boeing and the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company to gain technology for its separate “KFX” project to develop a home-built warplane.
Don Bacon
DeleteBoeing and EADS are demanding a 40, not 20, unit buy to honor existing tech transfer terms. If the negotiation with Lockheed falls apart, then the Korean government has no choice but to buy 40 Boeing or EADS jets and cut the F-35 order to 20.
Well I'm glad to hear those security features are in place. I hope those security features include software destruction.
DeleteAnyway I just think there are some technical capabilities the ROKAF wont have if they don't get an F-35. If it was up to me I'd have the wing leaders in F-35s.
Let's look at what the ROK JCS Council wants to do--
ReplyDelete--$7.3 billion for 40 F-35A, $182.5m each
--$2 billion (?) follow-on buy of 20 other aircraft
--$19.1m for KFX program in 2014, a 14-year-old program
--$ ?? billion R&D program using tech info from foreign buys
--$30 billion (?) for 430 KFX starting in 5 years
Why the F-35? Officials expect the stealth fighter to serve as a strong asymmetric deterrent asset against the unpredictable regime in Pyongyang. “When the U.S. F-22 stealth fighter operated on the peninsula, there appeared to be commotion in the North trying to detect it,” a military official told media, declining to be named. “It is also said that the North Korean leadership cuts down its outside activities when a radar-evading plane is nearby.”
What problems with F-35 (besides the high cost and all the rest)? The ROK expects to procure the F-35A equipped with the final combat-capable Block 3-F software "which is to be completed in late 2016." No, that can't happen, because the final software suite for full combat capability, Block 3F, is expected in 2017. Prediction--it won't happen even then. It's already been delayed three years.
Why the KFX? The Air Force faces a shortage of about 100 fighters in 2019, when nearly all the F-4s and F-5s are expected to be decommissioned. The Air Force says it needs at least 430 fighter jets to prepare for possible wartime operations ― some 100 high-end, 200 middle-range and 100 low-end models.
Where is the ROK Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) in all this? The ones who have to do the acquisition? We don't know.
well I like KFX for them because its an domestic program the korean government will have a lot more say over how its built and will in the end be happier with it.
DeleteBut you cant build a wicked new jet without a working knowledge of wicked new jets. You've got to get a few or you'll wind up producing a stealth version of a f-16 block 40 at best, which doesn't come close.
When you invest in a domestic aircraft infrastructure you'll always get caught up in a traditionalism and corporate and political resistance toward innovation and cant afford to have all those problems inflamed by a lack of understanding about the cutting edge. an example, if the us government bought the F-16 production line from the private owners, we would have congressmen still forcing them down the Air Forces throat in 2080.
So getting a few really modern aircraft and the associated technical knowledge and rooting the endeavor in innovation from the start is critical.
Don Bacon
Delete> --$7.3 billion for 40 F-35A, $182.5m each
Assuming this can be done. The DAPA is doing a recalculation to see if this is really possible right now.
> --$2 billion (?) follow-on buy of 20 other aircraft
At least $3 billion for 20. Not a follow-on buy but also decided this year, and may not be 20 depending on the outcome of the ongoing negotiations with Lockheed and pricing calculation.
> --$30 billion (?) for 430 KFX starting in 5 years
$12 billion for 120 KFX Block 1 units, to be delivered from 2023~2030.
> Why the KFX?
The KFX will be used to "deal with" the J-20 and the JASDF F-35 in the East China Sea. Yup, the airforce officials specifically named J-20 and F-35 as intended targets for the KFX, and this is why they were pushing for the max spec possible.
news report:
DeleteThe Joint Chiefs of Staff Council has decided to shorten the period of the project from the original 20 odd years, as the Air Force faces a shortage of about 100 fighters in 2019, when nearly all the F-4s and F-5s are expected to be decommissioned.
Don Bacon
Delete2017 is the year of presidential election, and the leftwingers are strongly favored to win. And they want the OPCON transfer.
This is a non-issue. The 19.1 million dollars will go to the F-50 program, as that plane is a solid upgrade from F-4 and F-5 legacy fighters. The KFX branch 3 is where Korea is looking to get some 5th gen tech, and it seems like 40 F-35s is the "about right" for now.
ReplyDeleteI think South Korea is being a bit short sighted with the F-35 purchase, and may be doing it only under duress to keep relations good with US defence contractors. When they can meet the bulk of their jet fighter needs from a domestic program, and the US has a treat obligation to provide for defense from North Korean aggression, their is no reason for South Korea to buy F-35s as if they were truly needed to stop North Korean aggression would it matter if the pilot spoke English or Hangul?
South Korea's bid for F-35s only makes sense when you look at the possibility of a pre-emptive strike which would need stealth for some sort of plausible deniability.
The duress might come from the US commanding the ROK military. Just a guess.
DeleteNot necessarily.
DeleteThe current ruling rightwingers want to delay the OPCON transfer as long as possible, but the leftwingers are set to take back the presidential office in 2017, as the leftwing candidates are polling strong with no. 1 and no. 2 spots. The current rightwinger party doesn't have compelling candidates to challenge the charismatic leftwinger candidates. The leftwingers definately want the OPCON transfer.
After the OPCON transfer, the ROK defense ministry commands the US ground troops deployed in Korea. The USAF 7th airforce general still commands the ROKAF(This is why the ROKAF is treated like an adopted child and gets the least funding) after OPCON transfer, who in turn is supposed to report to the ROK military's chief of staff.
Why not, because something might happen in 2017? Then I predict that in 2017 there will another contested story about the NorKors sinking a SoKor ship, which delayed the last plan for an OpCon transfer and would do so again.
DeleteMeanwhile, the US tells the ROK JCS what to do, is my guess. Why else would ROKs decide to purchase a faulty plane still (eterrnally) being developed?
Aerial strikes on North Korea with plausible deniability LMFAO what I wouldn't give for some plausible deniability. ROTFL Kim Jung Un what a fucking douche, LOL I hope I misspelled him friggin name too.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, that photoshopped image includes the Dokdo-Takeshima Islands disputed between South Korea and Japan.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/wordpress/wp-content/images/dokdo-airshot-2.jpg
from the web:
Perhaps one of the most absurd territorial disputes between any two countries is the dispute over the South Korean islets called Dokdo. Dokdo is a tiny outcropping of rocks off the southern coast of South Korea. Claimed by both South Korea and Japan, it was occupied by South Korea in 1952. Uninhabitable due to the lack of fresh water, it is currently home to an elderly couple and a detachment of South Korean police. South Koreans are emotionally invested in Dokdo. As a result, Seoul places an irrational amount of emphasis on protecting a minuscule amount of its territory from … Japan, of all places.
Here's a more pleasant photo taken on Korea's "Dokdo Day" in October.
http://img.yonhapnews.co.kr/photo/yna/YH/2013/11/01/PYH2013110105020031500_P2.jpg
Mar 1, 2013
ReplyDeleteIndonesia, South Korea to build fighter aircraft
JAKARTA, March 1 (UPI) -- Indonesia and South Korea are cooperating in building a joint fighter but politics are delaying progress. The project will produce the KFX/IFX fighter, which is called a "4.5-generation" combatant aircraft, as opposed to the U.S. Lockheed Martin fifth-generation stealth Lightning-II F-35 fighter.
The KFX/IFX' s fighter's abilities are designed to be more advanced than the U.S.-built Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon jet aircraft. The KFX/IFX fighter jets will eventually be designated the F-33, with a capability slightly below the F-35.
However, the entire project will be slow off the mark, Indonesian Defense Ministry official Pos Hutabarat said. "It will be postponed in 1 1/2 years because the recent transition of power in South Korea," he said at a defense industry seminar in Jakarta. "The new president has just been inaugurated in that country. The new government needs more data to convince the Parliament." South Korea on Monday marked the inauguration of President Park Geun-hye.
Pos said the delay will push back collaboration on the project to June 2014.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2013/03/01/Indonesia-South-Korea-to-build-fighter-aircraft/UPI-51111362114300/
Nov 24, 2013
ReplyDeleteIn South Korea, Delays Drag a Project to Build Homegrown Fighter Jets
The Korea Fighter Experimental program, or KFX, has been delayed several times in the last decade, and time is running out for a decision.
“President Park must make up her mind,” said Cho Jin-soo, president of the Korean Society for Aeronautical and Space Sciences. “South Korea must choose between building its own skills by developing an indigenous model for the first time or settling for a more economic jet by copying the model of an American partner. It can’t have both at the first try.” ...
“The KFX may prove that smaller nations, when combining funds and resources, can produce a near fifth-generation aircraft that approaches the capability of a fighter produced by countries with far greater resources, such as the U.S., Russia and China. But this is unlikely,” Richard Weitz, director of the Center for Political-Military Analysis at the Hudson Institute, said in an email. “The KFX, if completed, may be appealing to less wealthy nations who cannot afford the F-35.”
The KFX was born of an urgent need: The country’s Air Force is aging rapidly. It will start retiring 300 F-4s, F-5s and other jets — all designed more than 50 years ago — in a few years and must replace them fast.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/25/business/international/delays-hamper-ambitious-south-korean-jet-program.html?_r=0
For those who do not understand why I keep saying the F-35 negotiations are not going well, refer to this.
ReplyDeletehttp://news.sbs.co.kr/section_news/news_read.jsp?news_id=N1002168203
"40 However, even buying concerns come not guaranteed. Additional requirements and options of the Air Force, the F-35 and more than 200 billion won on a single Communist this price because of the size. Budget of 8.3 trillion won will buy F-35 30 대 also told that the last minute is coming out smoothly. "
Google translation is bad, but what the news report is saying is that the purchase of 40 is not guaranteed, and the ROKAF may not even be able to buy 30 with the budget($7.3 billion) based on current price negotiations.
Pretty scary stuff. This is why the DAPA is going back to the drawing board and is trying to come up with Plan C.
As to why the F-35 prices are shooting up is because the original bid price assumed Japan maintenance(Which obviously is unacceptable for Korea), so adding a local maintenance center(Not depot level, but field level), a reprogramming center, and the external armament capability adds billions to the bill.
ReplyDelete