Thanks to Pietro Nurra for the link!
via Defense News.
If I was a F-35 supporter I'd be leery. You're seeing an ill wind blowing for that program...
*The S. Koreans aren't happy about the cost of the F-35 and they are already looking at buying far fewer than they actually need because of that.
*Turkey is in the same position...they wanted 100 plus of those airplanes but probably won't be able to afford that many.
*The SAAB design house is going to be functioning whether or not they sell another Gripen. There will be no monopoly on fighter production and the little company from Sweden is the reason.
This bears watching.
via Defense News.
Turkey has been in talks with Sweden’s Saab for pre-conceptual design work for the first Turkish national fighter jet. Saab produces the JAS 39 Gripen, a lightweight single-engine multirole fighter.Read it all here.
But industry sources say other foreign players could get involved in later stages. “It is not a secret that [Korea Aerospace Industries] is seeking to have a slot,” said one Western company source.
Turkey hopes that the indigenous TF-X will fly by 2023, the centennial of the republic. Turkey’s aerospace powerhouse, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), has been debating three designs.
If I was a F-35 supporter I'd be leery. You're seeing an ill wind blowing for that program...
*The S. Koreans aren't happy about the cost of the F-35 and they are already looking at buying far fewer than they actually need because of that.
*Turkey is in the same position...they wanted 100 plus of those airplanes but probably won't be able to afford that many.
*The SAAB design house is going to be functioning whether or not they sell another Gripen. There will be no monopoly on fighter production and the little company from Sweden is the reason.
This bears watching.
I would not call SAAB a little company, they are pretty big and strong worldwide corporation.
ReplyDeleteNow we will see the global circus of political and close doors pressure over Turkey to put more money in to that basket without bottom called F-35 program.
The Brazilian decision has effectively assured the Gripen's future. Saab now has enough numbers to fully develop the "NG" Gripen with AESA radar, more fuel, and the upgrade GE414 engine. It likely won't be the best fighter on the market, but it will be more than "good enough" for most.
ReplyDeleteWhen you consider Saab is predicting the Gripen E will cost ½ that of a F-35, with ¼ of the operating costs, it makes the math behind it pretty obvious.
SAAB may be able to sell the Gripen as a low cost alternative to the F-35. Considering the Brazilain deal is showing that countries don't have to buy American, and they can shop for alternatives such as the Eurofighter, Rafele or SU-35, or MIG-35's. I believe that the manufactures of the Eurofighter, Rafele, SU-35, or MIG-35's are taking advantage of America's NSA scandal due to the Sowndin Affect and are buying alternatives to American.
ReplyDeleteThe one thing neither Sweden or Turkey or Korea have are engines. If they go US, then they could be slapped down and told they can't have US engines, but that is remote with the tight defense budgets these days if SNECMA, Rolls Royce would step in and try to offer their engines.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that neither Rolls Royce or SNECMA have an engine of the proper size and thrust that Saab needs for Gripen E
DeleteEJ200 could easily be stepped up (as designed) to F414 thrust in a lighter, smaller package.
DeleteAlright, so Turkey is saying that they will DESIGN, TEST, and BUILD a 4/4+ generation jet and start initial production in 9 YEARS.
ReplyDeleteWith ZERO indigenous experience......
Holy crap, Turkey aka Erdoyan is getting pretty delusional these days.
No, Turkey isn't saying that.
Deletenews report:
Turkey has been in talks with Sweden’s Saab for pre-conceptual design work for the first Turkish national fighter jet. Saab produces the JAS 39 Gripen, a lightweight single-engine multirole fighter. But industry sources say other foreign players could get involved in later stages. “It is not a secret that [Korea Aerospace Industries] is seeking to have a slot,” said one Western company source.
And Turkey doesn't have "ZERO indigenous experience".
Turkey (TAI) has extensive experience producing and modernizing F-16.
https://www.tai.com.tr/en/department/aircraft-group
TAI is currently producing center fuselages for the F-35 as a sub-contractor to Northrop Grumman. It also produces center fuselage metallic assemblies for the F-35A, selected composite components for all F-35 variants, composite air inlet ducts for F-35A, and air-to-ground alternate mission pylons for all F-35 variants.
Don Bacon
DeleteCanada assembles millions of autos and actually has a major auto parts supplier named Magna, yet Canada can't design a decent vehicle. Assemblying a vehicle and designing a vehicle are two totally different things, and this is why a country like India with decades of experience in assembly struggles to design a new fighter jet.
So in essense, Turkey does have zero experience in designing a jet fighter but that's OK, Saab will do the hard part and leaving easy stuff for Turkish industries to fill in.
Why are you repeating the obvious to me?
DeleteMcSpadden is the one who falsely claimed Turkey said they would design the plane.
Don Bacon
Delete- David McSpadden says Turkey has zero experience in designing a fighter jet.
- Don Bacon disputes David's arguement that Turkey has some parts experience on the F-35 and it counts as something.
- Slowman disputes Don Bacon, showing that assembling and producing parts for a vehicle doens't let you design that vehicle.
The truth is in between. Yes, Turkey has zero experience in designing a fighter, but Turkey also hired a private tutor on the subject of fighter jet engineering, to ensure that the tutor will just show Turkey the answer when Turkey is stuck and is willing to pay more money to see the answer.
SLOWman.
DeleteMcSpadden said "Turkey is saying that they will DESIGN, TEST, and BUILD a 4/4+ generation jet and start initial production in 9 YEARS. With ZERO indigenous experience......"
I said that's not what Turkey said. Turkey said --It will work with SAAB (and Korea) on DESIGN
PLUS -- Turkey does have experience on BUILD, which I described, so it's not ZERO indigenous experience.
Got it?
You're focused only on design -- get over it.
I believe they also have domestic aesa sensor technology developed for their navy, amongst other stuff. Turkey is a large, well established second world country, I am sure they have many engineers, some of which should be capable of collaborating with counterparts in SAAB and korean aeronautics, to come up with something decent, and in the process build up skills and infrastructure for domsetic design.
DeleteThis is bassically what India is doing with Russia, except they built the tejas first, now they are kinda working with them on the pakfa, and then they will build an indigenous 5th gen.
Thanks Slowman
Delete*Jan 14, 2013 -- Technical issues delay Turkish F-35 order
ReplyDelete*Oct 21, 2013 -- Turkey To Reissue F-35 Order
*Nov 3, 2013 -- Turkey to renew F-35 order by mid-January
tick, tock, tick, tock.....
Muslims does not need F-35 by the way, Gripen is more than enough.
ReplyDeleteSurely they do, to reach a parity with Israel.
DeleteSome interesting update at http://news.mingpao.com/20140127/caa2.htm
ReplyDeleteChina revised its Diaoyu Islands war plan from a naval war to an air war. The shift was made after Xi Jinping visited PLA air and naval bases. He was satisfied with PLAAF's readiness but not with PLAN, so the conclusion was that China would have a much better chance of defeating Japan in an air war than in a naval shoot out war.
China could be ready to carry out this attack in 5 years.
The fact that China sees an opening in the air war and not in the naval surface war against Japan should worry the US. Japan's naval surface force doesn't have an opening because all the warships are Japanese sourced, while a gap is developing in the air power because fighter jets are imported and there is nothing that could be imported at a sufficient quantity without breaking the bank, or face a heavy handed diplomatic pressure from the US if the buyer try to go with something reasonable like the Silent Eagle or the Super Hornet. In other word, the US is responsible for creating this dangerous situation of creating an air power vacuum among itself and its allies with the F-35.
ReplyDeleteThe key to a new plane is propulsion and RAM coatings, sensors/avionics, however there are very few powerplant producers, and getting powerplants creates a dependency, even worse higher end plants like PW119 are expensive, and probably offlimits.
ReplyDeleteAll these countries trying to develop 5th generations planes seem to be lacking domestic engines, this is what you get for having politicians control the military!