I fail to see what is the point of a less effective(small prop vs large prop) and even more complex design (may be not now but once you put human pilots on the line where is the redundancy for engine or drive failliure ) Germans already built something similar a fullsize e-volo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzP0Zqxam7E From what i can understand idea is to use software regulation instead of mechanical controls so gearboxes and linkages are not needed.so potentialy saving compexity and lowering costs.
i see an airplane that is more compact and can fit in even smaller spaces than what we call light helicopters today. additionally i see an airplane that is more user friendly and less dangerous for ground crews (no tail rotor).
I would like to see how they manage redundancy in case of motor failiure or damage(you do realise props would be driven by electric motors). German design has more rotors so probably one or two can be compensated + a ballistic parachute that would enable to survive a total power failiure, for but with 4 motors driving eight props i do not see the redundancy
As for compactness a MD500 rotor disk is cca 26ft and carries more payload that this thing. The big 8 rotor transformer thingy is 31x19 foot an only carries 500kg payload.
why do you keep harping on redundancy. a single rotor helicopter is filled with points of failure. one badly maintained rotor blade and you can kiss your ass goodbye....no autorotation nothing, just a freight train ride to hell.
Lindberg flew a single engine plane for a reason ,that still holds true today specialy in VTOL craft. In jet vtol planes engine failiure = crash it doesnt mater if its one or 20 engines involved .Rotorplanes use crosshafting and coupling gearboxes so that they can still fly on one engine (altough barely as payload capacity plumets). This thing will probably use electric motors which are great in terms of simplicity ,but there will be no cross shafting that would enable other engines to compensate for a failed one.And by having 8 instead of 1 or 2 you just increased the likely hood of failiure many times over. But balistic parachute does provide some additional safety
ok. if you want to be stuck on this, i'll keep pushing. show me even a simulated landing of a V-22 with an engine out. seriously. do it on a simulator. you can't and you want to know why? because all the cross shafting bullshit is if the v-22 is in airplane mode. have an engine out or suffer enemy fire in helicopter mode and the thing is gonna get trashed.
quite simply these guys are buiilding something that is just plain cool. it'll be quiet, carry a decent payload and like with all great undertakings they have people, specifically you trying to shoot holes in it.
let it roll, stop being so fucking negative and wait and see where it goes.
Gentlemen, thank you for your comments. While patents are being filled we cannot comment openly regarding how this system is far better than the E-Volo or MD500, but we will release more information as soon as possible, but be assured, redundancy, ease of control with greatly reduced pilot workload combined with a dual serial hybrid gen-set system, independent motors and BRS give this configuration greater safety & capability.
This is some unique occasion to ask some questions about those design I think.
First: what is or rather would be in theory max operation range of this VTOL ? Second: as electric powered what kind of battery it will use ? Third: what about using of ducted fan instead of "open" propeller ?
This is some futuristic design, I will also keep an eye on you lads.
Shas - As mentioned above we cannot go into great detail at this stage but i will say our endurance figures are greater than a 407 & R66. Ducted fans have issues as do all things, but for cost purposes, maintenance (remember the lower the component count the less points of failure. KISS) and the fact that this design can be used in areas and by developing countries where a support infrastructure is limited, the more costly, complex design of a ducted fan for our platform would not be viable. We are looking closely at a system to prevent tip strikes on the props but it is still under test.
Understand, top secret design stuff. In case of ducted fans I was curious if there will be some kind of safety regulations about installing them to protect people from "walk in" the blades operation space. They are rather low and can cut off the head of human without problem I think. But of course you are right about increasing of weight, cost on complex of whole system that you want to be the simple as can be.
There is so much potential in this, airtaxi, fast ambulance, police, firefighters, military... there is the task for it in almost any service there is. And this is only the beginning, I see that this company of designers are on the road to C-21 Dragon :D
Not exactly the C-21 Dragon but the principles are similar. Yes the height of the blades is critical hence we are looking at a way of protecting ground users without adding drag or compromising aerodynamics greatly. The good point with electric propulsion is its ability to stop props as quick as it starts them, so immediate cut-off on landing of the bottom blades will reduce the danger for ground handling and ops.
Just keep it as simple as possible and I know I hope DoD takes a serious look at your product.
Too bad I still believe that one of the big defense contractors will buy you guys out ( ALWAYS TAKE THE MONEY!) and quietly fold your concept away and never hear of it again....
NICO - Thank you, but our team is working towards civilian & military customers and while the big boys may play hard ball, shelving the potential is not an option for us. Sometimes money means little when a simple solution can save lives and reduce costs.
I fail to see what is the point of a less effective(small prop vs large prop) and even more complex design (may be not now but once you put human pilots on the line where is the redundancy for engine or drive failliure )
ReplyDeleteGermans already built something similar a fullsize e-volo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzP0Zqxam7E
From what i can understand idea is to use software regulation instead of mechanical controls so gearboxes and linkages are not needed.so potentialy saving compexity and lowering costs.
The first prototype did already a manned flight in october 2011:
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L75ESD9PBOw
i see an airplane that is more compact and can fit in even smaller spaces than what we call light helicopters today. additionally i see an airplane that is more user friendly and less dangerous for ground crews (no tail rotor).
ReplyDeleteWatch Bell and Sikorsky spend a ton of lobby money on trying to kill it.....
ReplyDeletenaw. Bell would buy them, Sikorsky would team with them, Boeing would incorporate them and Lockheed would steal their secrets.
Deletethe best thing that could happen is Sikorsky, Boeing or BAE scooping them up and putting them under a wing.
I would like to see how they manage redundancy in case of motor failiure or damage(you do realise props would be driven by electric motors). German design has more rotors so probably one or two can be compensated + a ballistic parachute that would enable to survive a total power failiure, for but with 4 motors driving eight props i do not see the redundancy
DeleteAs for compactness a MD500 rotor disk is cca 26ft and carries more payload that this thing. The big 8 rotor transformer thingy is 31x19 foot an only carries 500kg payload.
why do you keep harping on redundancy. a single rotor helicopter is filled with points of failure. one badly maintained rotor blade and you can kiss your ass goodbye....no autorotation nothing, just a freight train ride to hell.
DeleteLindberg flew a single engine plane for a reason ,that still holds true today specialy in VTOL craft. In jet vtol planes engine failiure = crash it doesnt mater if its one or 20 engines involved .Rotorplanes use crosshafting and coupling gearboxes so that they can still fly on one engine (altough barely as payload capacity plumets). This thing will probably use electric motors which are great in terms of simplicity ,but there will be no cross shafting that would enable other engines to compensate for a failed one.And by having 8 instead of 1 or 2 you just increased the likely hood of failiure many times over. But balistic parachute does provide some additional safety
Deleteok. if you want to be stuck on this, i'll keep pushing. show me even a simulated landing of a V-22 with an engine out. seriously. do it on a simulator. you can't and you want to know why? because all the cross shafting bullshit is if the v-22 is in airplane mode. have an engine out or suffer enemy fire in helicopter mode and the thing is gonna get trashed.
Deletequite simply these guys are buiilding something that is just plain cool. it'll be quiet, carry a decent payload and like with all great undertakings they have people, specifically you trying to shoot holes in it.
let it roll, stop being so fucking negative and wait and see where it goes.
Gentlemen, thank you for your comments. While patents are being filled we cannot comment openly regarding how this system is far better than the E-Volo or MD500, but we will release more information as soon as possible, but be assured, redundancy, ease of control with greatly reduced pilot workload combined with a dual serial hybrid gen-set system, independent motors and BRS give this configuration greater safety & capability.
ReplyDeleteThis is some unique occasion to ask some questions about those design I think.
DeleteFirst: what is or rather would be in theory max operation range of this VTOL ?
Second: as electric powered what kind of battery it will use ?
Third: what about using of ducted fan instead of "open" propeller ?
This is some futuristic design, I will also keep an eye on you lads.
Shas - As mentioned above we cannot go into great detail at this stage but i will say our endurance figures are greater than a 407 & R66. Ducted fans have issues as do all things, but for cost purposes, maintenance (remember the lower the component count the less points of failure. KISS) and the fact that this design can be used in areas and by developing countries where a support infrastructure is limited, the more costly, complex design of a ducted fan for our platform would not be viable. We are looking closely at a system to prevent tip strikes on the props but it is still under test.
DeleteThank you for answer.
DeleteUnderstand, top secret design stuff. In case of ducted fans I was curious if there will be some kind of safety regulations about installing them to protect people from "walk in" the blades operation space. They are rather low and can cut off the head of human without problem I think. But of course you are right about increasing of weight, cost on complex of whole system that you want to be the simple as can be.
There is so much potential in this, airtaxi, fast ambulance, police, firefighters, military... there is the task for it in almost any service there is. And this is only the beginning, I see that this company of designers are on the road to C-21 Dragon :D
Not exactly the C-21 Dragon but the principles are similar. Yes the height of the blades is critical hence we are looking at a way of protecting ground users without adding drag or compromising aerodynamics greatly. The good point with electric propulsion is its ability to stop props as quick as it starts them, so immediate cut-off on landing of the bottom blades will reduce the danger for ground handling and ops.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteKeith - The platform has two small gen0sets as part of the series hybrid propulsion
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteVTOL D replied? How cool is that!
ReplyDeleteJust keep it as simple as possible and I know I hope DoD takes a serious look at your product.
Too bad I still believe that one of the big defense contractors will buy you guys out ( ALWAYS TAKE THE MONEY!) and quietly fold your concept away and never hear of it again....
NICO - Thank you, but our team is working towards civilian & military customers and while the big boys may play hard ball, shelving the potential is not an option for us. Sometimes money means little when a simple solution can save lives and reduce costs.
Delete