Wednesday, May 21, 2014

Is Poland the new military power in Europe?



via Janes.
Poland has received its first batch of Leopard 2A5 main battle tanks (MBTs) from ex-German Army stocks, the Polish General Command announced on 16 May.
A total of 11 Leopard 2A5s were delivered by rail to Zagan in west Poland, where their intended user, the 34th Armoured Cavalry Brigade, is based.
Poland ordered a total of 105 Leopard 2A5 MBTs, plus 14 of the earlier Leopard 2A4 variant and around 200 support and logistics vehicles, from ex-German stocks in November 2013 under a EUR187 million (USD253 million) contract with the German government. Poland already operates 124 Leopard 2A4 MBTs, plus a large inventory of Soviet-era T-72M and PT-91 Twardy MBTs. The new Leopards will replace the 34th Armoured Cavalry Brigade's two battalions of PT-91 tanks, while Poland's T-72M MBTs are planned to be phased out of service.
The Polish General Command stated that 49 of the new tanks should be delivered by mid-2014, with all vehicles being delivered by mid-2015.
With most of the European powers cutting combat power (most chillingly the UK) are we seeing a reshuffling of the power rankings?

If you haven't been paying attention, the Poles have embarked on a strong military armament program.  If they haven't reached parity with the Germans, French or UK they soon will (talking about ground combat forces so Navy guys chill out).

Expect these Leopard 2A5's to be upgraded to at least the 2A6 standard rather quickly.  Also expect local defense firms to do that upgrade work.

The Poles are doing it right.  I'm impressed. 

26 comments :

  1. Poland is only up-armouring due to having a very hostile neighbour in the form of Russia.
    Should a major conflict happen else where in the world, Poland won't deploy it's armour to assist in any worthwhile numbers as this would leave their homeland vulnerable.

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    1. I'm afraid that you are very wrong.

      Modernization program is not reaction to rise of Imperialistic neo-Soviet Russia. All armed forces need to modernize sooner or later ( better sooner then later of course ) and this is exactly what you see here. Polish armor is rather outdated and even if we update T-72M in to more potent and dangerous PT-91 "Twardy" it's still the same basic frame. Army put a lot of effort in to IFV project that give birth to excellent "Rosomak" but that cost a lot of money and military spending's in Poland are not big.

      We can't afford a totally new tank type with all those modernization programs on the line. So we buy used Leo's even before that's all mess with Russia. And of course we will not send tanks on missions, we don't have a transport capabilities to do that.

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    2. Yep lad, born under white & red flag.

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  2. Tongue in cheek I would say Germany quite likes the idea of Poles dying to keep the EU, sorry Germany, safe. Again tongue in cheek I think the reason why Germany and France became so keen on the UK joining the EEC was because they saw us as the squaddies of Europe and that our politicians would happily pay through the nose to join the club (both in treasure and potentially lives of our young.) Unfortunately for them our political elites forgot we are only part of the EU project under sufferance and now believe themselves to be European and so have started to cut our defences to mimic the actions of our supposed betters. Let's face it during the Cold War it was only the US and the UK that put any real effort into NATO. France gave themselves options by leaving the military part and the Germans with their war guilt and conscription were only there for show. We Brits should have brought our army home after WW2 and returned to a model based around the sea (and a large air force) and left the Continentals to their own devices. And finally once again tongue in cheek I think one of the reasons while some want Turkey in the EU is because of their 500,000 man army.

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    1. true, but as long as Islam is the majority faith in Turkey, it will NEVER get into the EU.

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    2. Without wishing to stray too far into the tinfoil zone I don't think our elites here in Greater Germany, sorry the EU, worry about Islam and they don't worry about whether the great unwashed are worried (rightly or wrongly) about Islam either. An enlarged market for German, sorry European good and possibly a Euro member with the added bonus of 500,000 man army on Russia's south flank and let us not forget how much the Russians like the Turks. They already have one foot in the door being in NATO. Imagine the US takes their ball back and the EU is left to fend for itself

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  3. I may ad to this Sol that there is modernization program of Leo's the Leopard 2PL and it will be probably developed in coop of Wojskowe Zakłady Motoryzacyjne S.A. and Rheinmetall Defence. In 2010 Rheinmetall show a presentation of MBT Revolution for Polish officials and they were very impressed. Also there are other company's that want to do this, mainly KMW that want to modernize Polish Leo's to similar level as Leopard 2A4CAN for Canada.

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  4. They PERHAPS have reached france in GROUND FORCE... What mean a T72 versus a Leclerc ?
    Our entire IFV program is about to be finished, we have FELIN for HIGH intensity fighting...
    They are above in terms of numbers, but please don't take it for a victory.

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    1. Well, to be correctly what will mean and Leopard 2A4 and A5 versus Leclerc?

      Our IFV program IS finished already.

      We have our TITAN future soldier project, definitely not in combat ready state as FÉLIN but still looking good.

      We can also speak about white flags and stuff in France arsenal... just joking lad, just joking. ;D

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    2. The total of 2A5 won't be over the total of Leclerc remaining in service... Plus Leopard is known for rusticity where Leclerc was based on lethality ( because it was intened to serve at 1 to 10 combat...)

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    3. But don't worry, our government is trying to destroy our army, like Holland and belgium.
      Just wait, we will have just enough troops remaining for the 14 july parade, with all this idiots.

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    4. Leopard MBT is considered the standard tank in Europe and is thought by many to be the best tank in the world. quite honestly i've seen many lists of the top tanks and the LeClerc is almost NEVER in the top 5. Leopard, Abrams, Merkava, Challenger and then either the Korean or Japanes or Russian tank.....but almost never the LeClerc.

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    5. A story I heard said that Israelis said Leopard was the best tank in the world ever............as long as you didn't want to go to war in it. :)

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    6. Steve,

      You are correct. The Germans do not want to see any of their war products be seen in any conflicts (only when sanctioned by the UN). Whether it's for offensive or defensive, Germany will impose a trade/military embago and this means no spare parts for your Leo.

      Why would you want to buy a Leo when you can't go to war with it? No idea. Money? Deterrence? Garage queen?

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    7. @Solomon
      We talk about weapon that never fighted against their real enemy, in fulda gap.
      I don't know if you consider gulf war, but only challenger and abrams were fighting.
      All other tanks are theoricaly evaluated.
      I don't know about challenger, abrams is known as a Gas black hole.
      The thing is that german have understood lessons from WW2 : they need a tank that is too advanced ( for low maintenance and cost ) but well armored and use moderatly gas.
      In that view, Léopard is the best of the world.
      In that view, Leclerc was too advanced for the past and too expensive as result ( see the TIGER II syndrom). Now we can use it as fully operationnal as the Léo, but we don't have the money for.
      The Merkava is certainly the best tank ever, but because Israelian tacticians made bad decisions, everybody changed of mind.
      So every TOP 3-5-10-100 vidéo on youtube are partial. The only thing we could make is a TOP 2 ( abrams and challenger).
      Never forget that nowadays, all major country have good AT missile and Sabot rounds...You know about Azincourt..

      For memory, the leclerc :
      -same acceleration as a Porsche 911 ( 0-100kmh, less than 4 seconds),
      -maximum speed at 110 km'h,
      -GALIX antipersonnal system
      -High tech optics separated optics for Gunner and Tank Chief
      -Autoloader
      -GAS Turbine ( deactivable, the thing they forget on abrams, for bigger autonomy)

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  5. They also have the know how on building Perry class frigates and putting together F-16's too, as they not only have a few examples sold to them in the late 90's-early 00's, but were also awarded offset contracts to build the former, and service the latter.

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    1. Building Perry's ? that's a dead end and nobody will do that. One of Polish Perry's is going for scrap, the second one receive very limited refresh & modernization. They are only for training duty not a combat ships.

      F-16's are Block 52+ the best there is for now. They already from 2013 are serviced in Wojskowe Zakłady Lotnicze nr 2 in Bydgoszcz.

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    2. Pssst. Wanna buy a cheap OHP?

      http://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/united-states-navy-selling-its-oliver-hazard-perry-ffg-class-frigates-no-reasonable-offer-refused/story-fnda1lbo-1226925931290

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  6. I think Poland maybe the new European military model, but then again, their impotent at the moment because they don't know how to respond to Ukraine.

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  7. The Polish better be, or else they have forgotten the Katyn forest.

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  8. Not to mention the Finns just acquired the nearly last batch of Dutch Leopards.

    What a disarming Europe is doing is making it impossible for their forces to be called upon to fight in another Afghanistan operation. Never, ever will we see major NATO forces deploy outside of the borders of member nations. They feel the war was costly, yet inconclusive so why get involved in another war.n

    To ensure that future leaders cannot order their forces into more quagmires, they are simply dismantling their forces to remove the option entirely. From now on, Western forces will be conducting war at 30000ft.

    The Poles, however, remember that the only thing that can safeguard their borders is blood and steel.

    I am excited to see if their light tank concept takes off. I think the ingenuity of the Eastern NATO allies are going to have a ton of defense programs, be it updated BMPs or new light tanks. It would be great if they could develop and pool their resources for:

    New Gripen NGs
    PL-01 tanks
    updated BMPs

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  9. Talk about people getting on and on about things they probably don't have a clue of ... Starting off with Poland and then getting into a pissing contest about which country has the bast MBT.
    Real answer could be twofold: 1. nobody knows which is best MBT, because none of the models mentioned has been put to real test against equivalent armoured force (in that regard mention of Abrams and Challenger in Gulf War is a joke if you look at what they had in front of them and what they had in the air with them ... more like turkey shoot ! besides, even the bradleys destroyed more armour than the M1, so forget about that comparison). Second answer you could give, is that best MBT would depend on theater of operation, as there are differences in environment that can affect efficiency of MBT. And finally last answer, even the best MBT in the world is only as good as its crew (and the crew's determination to put up a fight). Not to mention tactical leadership and operational units ability to manoueuver and fire.
    As for the Korean and Chinese MBTs, being among the best in the world, give me a break !

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    1. Just to put things into perspective, before getting carried away by Polish efforts. Total military spending: UK and France (about 60 billions USD/year for each of these two countries), Germany (about 45 billions USD) ... Poland (9 billions USD), which means the Poles not only lag behind the three major european powers, but they're also behind Italy (34 billions), Spain (11,5 billions) and even the Netherlands (10 billions).
      They got a good deal though about German Leo 2, I agree, but I wouldn't read too much into that. One micro-event, that has to be seen within a much wider picture..

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    2. Hecate notice one thing, yes we don't have that big defense budget BUT... we have not cut it. There is no - on our military spending like in all those nations you mention, we are on + and this + will be bigger in the future.

      As always, it's not how much you spend but how. Look at those poor bastards who buy F-35, crazy shit tons of money go in to toilet and for less you would by way better planes in larger numbers.

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    3. True to that ... I'm not trying to bash the Poles anyway, just saying this was a good deal for polish land forces. No less but no more either (for now).

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