Thanks for the article Tom!
via GlobalResearch.ca
I hadn't even considered the nuclear reactors in that country....but now, if these reports are to be believed, they're now being targeted by Nazis.
Shit just went from bad to worse.
Ukraine can barely keep up with the insurgency and now if it has to divert forces to guard duty...and lets be real, they won't be top flight units if they're not directly fighting the insurgency, then we can expect an attempt to succeed.
Can you imagine what another Chernobyl will do to Europe?
Can you imagine the excuse that would give Putin to take over the entire country? Hell, he'd even be cheered by the Europeans for saving them from a nuclear disaster!
This is some serious geo-political gamesmanship. This is the ultimate in Special Forces A-Team type nation destabilization going on. They read our playbook from Vietnam to Afghanistan and they're doing it to perfection.
via GlobalResearch.ca
Reports allege that some 20 members from the armed Neo-Nazi front, Right Sector, attempted to storm the Zaporizhia nuclear power plant, in Energodar city, Zaporizhia province. The Voice of Russia reported in an article titled, “Right Sector attempts to seize largest NPP in Ukraine,” that:Man!
Policemen of the city of Energodar have detained 20 activists of the Right Sector, who tried to seize the Zaporozhye NPP. According to the leader of the Zaporozhye branch of the organization, the militants were afraid that the city would fall in the hands of supporters of federalization.
I hadn't even considered the nuclear reactors in that country....but now, if these reports are to be believed, they're now being targeted by Nazis.
Shit just went from bad to worse.
Ukraine can barely keep up with the insurgency and now if it has to divert forces to guard duty...and lets be real, they won't be top flight units if they're not directly fighting the insurgency, then we can expect an attempt to succeed.
Can you imagine what another Chernobyl will do to Europe?
Can you imagine the excuse that would give Putin to take over the entire country? Hell, he'd even be cheered by the Europeans for saving them from a nuclear disaster!
This is some serious geo-political gamesmanship. This is the ultimate in Special Forces A-Team type nation destabilization going on. They read our playbook from Vietnam to Afghanistan and they're doing it to perfection.
Considering that one of the changes made to Ukrainian reactors post-Chernobyl was a hard-coded program to automatically shut down the reactor if the operator reduces Tue amount of power to be produced, I'd say the chances of "another Chernobyl" happening are rather slim.
ReplyDeleteObviously, idiots taking control of a nuclear reactor is never a good thing, but the chance of "another Chernobyl" happening are rather remote.
Whoops, forgot to add in something there: if the operator reduces *the* power to be produced below pre defined limits.
DeleteObviously, nuclear reactors can vary the amount of power they produce. But if the operator (legitimate or not) attempts to reduce output to too low a level, it tends to set off safety procedures, at least on the post-Chernobyl RBMK reactors.
Pat, Bubba have you ever heard of TNT, RDX, Nitroglycerine?
DeleteHow about the Oklahoma federal building being blown up with fertilizer?
If the containment dome is in place it can be breached, if the pumps to cool the core are turned off and the cooling tanks holed with a shaped charge (think RPG ) or as in one American nuclear accident that produced actual atomic power caused casualties, a Hammer.
See SL-1 Power Excursion January 3, 1961 many of the events are classified.
Yes, the US with all it's checks and balances had a reactor rod was supposed to not be withdrawn more than 4" but during routine maintenance the rod became stuck a man got on top of the reactor and attempted to knock the rod loose with a "hammer" this action caused the rod to detach from it's control rod, in order to reattach the rod it was withdrawn from it's critical of 23 inches to 26.5 " the rod went Prompt critical in just 4 milliseconds causing the coolant water to vaporize instantly and sending a water hammer into the containment vessel so violently the 13 ton vessel jumped 9 feet and 1 inch into the air causing a nuclear accident that instantly killed one man and severely injured three others pinning that one man to the ceiling with a plug. Flooded the area with super heated steam All three died later from physical trauma and even had that not killed them the radiation would have.
Those three were buried in one big lead lined casket as atomic waste in an area designated for dangerous radioactive material.
A determined man with a set of blueprints and a hammer can create a Chernobyl accident given time and determination and the will to kill himself to achieve the event.
With nothing more than a 3 lb sledge hammer.
Remote? Not hardly, this is dangerous ground well worth a Tank/Motor rifle division assault just to prevent this.
what about direct sabotage? something that can't be performed with computers, or by manipulating the machinery but by doing something as simple as taking a RPG and blasting the reactor....or planting C4 in the control room....or whatever Russian nuke power experts can devise to put the reactor into a bad place.
ReplyDeletethe way i see it is that operational control for the rebellion is coming from Moscow. if they encounter problems, either technical or tactical then that's where the answers will come if they can't solve it in the field.
Here's a pretty good example of what nuclear reactor containment chambers are designed to withstand.
DeleteF4 Phantom Jet Hits Concrete Wall at 500 MPH: http://youtu.be/RZjhxuhTmGk
The exact standards for reactors differ by country, but all of them have very similar requirements for resisting physical damage. And the attackers only have one shot at it, because once the computer in control of the reactor detects anything happening, it's going to deep-six the reactor.
And those sensors are *sensitive*! For example, a nuclear reactor went through an automated emergency shutdown just because this idiot detonated 100lbs of Tannerite several miles from the reactor. It was too far away for any air blast to be detected, but the seismic sensors at the plant detected a slight seismic tremor and automatically shut the reactor down. Any attempt at physically destroying the reactor will generate a lot more sensor stimuli, which would obviously cause the reactor to go cold.
CNN Tannerite Video of MN Dump Truck Explosion: http://youtu.be/2_HRyAG2xqU
As a disclaimer, I'm not saying a group of extremists taking control of a reactor wouldn't be a very bad thing, and I'm also not saying that there's no way they could ever do anything with negative consequences (there's a reason why reactors are gated off from public access). I'm just saying that it's a lot more complicated than just pushing buttons or throwing a lump of explosives at the containment chamber. Reactors are well protected, and for good reason. As Chernobyl and Fukushima showed, there are a lot of things that can go terribly wrong if nuclear material is knocked into the atmosphere.
ReplyDeleteThink terrorist NAZI assault Platoon with assets like MG's, rocket launchers, chemical weapons hitting the plant like the Heroes of Telmark and then simply taking the reactor apart until it reaches criticality.
DeleteWell, I hope the reactor can reach criticality, and can reach it on a daily basis -- it won't produce any power if it doesn't!
DeleteOften times, you hear the term "criticality" referee to in movies as if it indicates some error. I.e. "ZOMG the reactor is about to go critical! We're doomed!")
Criticality just means that the amount of power produced increases from " standby" to "full prpduction.". A criticality happens every time a reactor starts up.
As for a group of people trying to physically destroy a reactor: like I said, they'd better have some way of doing it in one fell swoop. If they just try to chew apart the reactor's concrete barrier using guns and rocket launchers, the reactor will automatically go cold long before they breach anything.
OK, These guys have tanks, 20 guys can drive a three man tank plt onto the grounds, into the building, all the way to the reactor and then with DU rounds start shooting everything in sight.
DeleteIf the reactor goes cold, the rods will still be hot and if the rods are allowed to get hot enough to melt then you have a situation. Just because the system is designed for safety as are all nuclear weapons does not mean the system can be over ridden and the reactor goes off.
These guys have more than enough tanks to breach the perimeter and the building of a nuclear power station.
Two men in a rubber boat almost sank an American ship that could fight and destroy many countries entire Navy, and Air Forces, a ship that automatically could engage targets in succession many miles away was crippled by a rubber boat two determined men and the proper amount of explosives.
The same can be done to a power plant.
June 23, 1942 – Leipzig, Germany (then Nazi Germany) – Steam explosion and reactor fire* Shortly after the Leipzig L-IV atomic pile — worked on by Werner Heisenberg and Robert Doepel — demonstrated Germany's first signs of neutron propagation, the device was checked for a possible heavy water leak. During the inspection, air leaked in, igniting the uranium powder inside. The burning uranium boiled the water jacket, generating enough steam pressure to blow the reactor apart. Burning uranium powder scattered throughout the lab causing a larger fire at the facility
ReplyDeleteAugust 21, 1945 – Los Alamos National Laboratory, Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA – Accidental criticality Harry K. Daghlian, Jr. dropped a tungsten carbide brick onto a plutonium core, inadvertently creating a critical mass at the Los Alamos Omega site. He quickly removed the brick, but was fatally irradiated, dying September 15.[3]
May 21, 1946 – Los Alamos National Laboratory, Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA – Accidental criticality While demonstrating his technique to visiting scientists at Los Alamos, Canadian physicist Louis Slotin manually assembled a critical mass of plutonium. A momentary slip of a screwdriver caused a prompt critical reaction. Slotin died on May 30 from massive radiation poisoning, with an estimated dose of 1,000 rads (rad), or 10 grays (Gy). Seven observers, who received doses as high as 166 rads, survived, yet three died within a few decades from conditions believed to be radiation-related.[4]
In the above incidents, both Daghlian (August 21, 1945 case) and Slotin (May 21, 1946 case), were working with the same bomb core which became known as the "demon core", which was eventually utilized for the Able test detonation on July 1, 1946.
from Wikipedia List of military nuclear accidents.
Those accidents are a pretty good reason for why all current reactors are computer controlled, and why modern designs are built to be a lot more stable than the old uranium piles -- there's no risk of a technician dropping a screwdriver and making the reactor go critical during maintenance.
Delete@Zebra Dunn. well said.
Delete@Pat Brewster. you ignored the second part of my statement. i believe these groups to be under the control of Moscow. with that being said, if these groups run into a technical or tactical problem that can't be solved in the field, i believe they'll call Moscow for guidance. Putin will gladly (if he's behind this) put one of his nuke power experts on the problem and the solution found. if i'm right then this is a danger that can't be described. hell even if they're not operating under orders from Putin they can still have assets that might prove knowledgeable.
You are talking accidents, I am talking about a terrorist who does such an event on purpose, deliberately taking safety nets away, safety guards off and doing the unthinkable.
DeleteBlow a hole in the dome, blow a hole in the containment vessel so the coolant leaks out, then take a hammer and beat on the rods until something reaches criticality.
Your talking about reasonable safety conscious personnel I'm talking about a nut case with a cause and a desire to kill as many people as he can.
Think, Mohammed Atta with a screw driver and a reactor rod.
The problem is that safety systems are hard-coded into the computer. If you want to alter them, you have to shut off the reactor; it's pretty standard to make it impossible to conduct maintenance or alter safety procedures without shutting down the reactor first.
DeleteIt doesn't really matter whether or not you want it to shut down; if you try to alter anything hard-coded into the system, it will shut down the reactor.
The reactor rods radiate radiation, they are hot even when the plant is shut down the rods still stay hot, very, very hot if the systems ways to shut down and keep the rods cool are compromised then the rods get hot enough to set things on fire, like metal, concrete, steel, the floor there is no known way to make a radioactive rod from being radioactively hot.
DeleteMost plants use water, even if the rods drop into a locked vessel filled with continuous flowing water the vessel can be compromised and the coolant drained enough for the coolant to vaporize causing a steam explosion which further cripples the system until the rods melt right through the floor and head towards China if, when that hot pile of radioactive metal hits ground water......steam explosion again this time bigger and contained by earth becomes a bomb.
I am talking about a man walking into the room with a big hammer and smashing stuff until he makes a physical hole in the coolant vessel.
Once the coolant drains away the rods start to melt.
That is true -- even a "scrammed" reactor will continue to release heat. All I know about that issue is that Western reactors (dunno about non-Western designs) are built to hold even completely molten fuel without a breach.
DeleteThis is a major reason why the Three Mile Island accident never went Chernobyl -- the reactor completely melted, but the molten uranium just pooled up on the floor of the reactor containment chamber and froze.
Again, I'm not saying it would be impossible for an extremist group to destroy a reactor. It would be very difficult, though. Hopefully, we won't ever have to find out how safe old Soviet block reactor designs are against physical attack...
Rule Number One: The Bomber always gets through, it make take a lot but one will get inside and with a simple tool create a nuclear melt down.
ReplyDeleteThere is that old saw, "What is the most lethal weapon in the world for killing?" answer, "One well motivated, highly trained Marine with a radio and a known location."
All it will take is one highly motivated, determined well trained NAZI with a blueprint of the site, and a way to take things apart that should never be taken apart.
In the SL-1 excursion a trained maintenance man was beating on the reactor rod with a sledge hammer for the love of Holly!
Like I said: whether they plan on blowing up the reactor or "covertly" disassembling some crucial component, they'd better have a way of doing it all at once. Calling Russia for help after your RPG didn't penetrate the containment chamber just won't cut it; the reactor will be shut off automatically before you can get Putin on speed dial.
Deleteon a rather chilling sidenote;
Deletei wonder how many NSA and Dept of Homeland Security alerts we just activated by talking about this shit?
TO OUR GOVT WATCHERS, WE'RE JUST DISCUSSING FICTIONAL EVENTS. WE ARE NOT ACTUALLY PLANNING THEM OURSELVES.
JUST THOUGHT THE DHS AND NSA WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.
back to normal broadcasting.
I am keeping OpSec in mind, knowledge can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
DeleteWhat I have spoken of anyone can find on the internet, the things that are known but cannot be found are locked away forever as per National Security act.
I love my country, warts and all and have no desire to harm anyone by accident, by intent or by stupidly saying something that should not be said.
I am having a very stimulating and interesting conversation with my very good posting friend Pat who I admire with his knowledge of safety.
All under the watchful eye of my Blogger guy Sol who I respect and also admire.
"reckon they bought it?" ;^D
i doubt they bought it. expect a visit Monday morning.
Deleteon a similar vein but different topic. what if the Nazis say fuck a nuclear power plant and start attacking electrical stations all over the country?
can you imagine the chaos they could start?
a couple of hits in kiev or even a couple of guys in a car driving around shooting transformers could plunge the city into total anarchy in the span of a couple of hours.
we're living on a razors edge. imagine if they did the same in Washington DC, Los Angeles or New York! you could plunge a city into the literal dark ages before authorities could react.
AIN"T THE MODERN WORLD GRAND!
I dunno about Ukrainian substations, but if they're anything like the ones in California, the difficulty in breaking into one would range from anywhere from difficult to stupidly easy.
DeleteFor example, I saw a substation once that was built like Ft. Knox -- concrete wall, razor wire, security cameras, you name it, they had it.
That was in West Oakland, though. Considering the stories I've heard about the area, they probably needed those defensive features...
On the other hand, there's a substation near where I live in San Francisco that doesn't have anything protecting it other than some traffic cones and a line of "caution" tape. And where is this substation located? In an abandoned area, away from people and traffic, perhaps?
Nope. It's right next to a main thoroughfare. Hell, forget physical attack. All it would take is a drunk driver to shut off power to a sizeable chunk of the world's largest insane asylum (otherwise known as San Fran).
Given Pat's naiveté, I feel obliged to point out that the Fukushima Diachi triple-meltdown happened AFTER the reactors had already SCRAMed. Simply because it takes 3-5 days for a reactor to cool down to a 'safe' level; and all on-site/off-site backup power for the active cooling systems was cut off by the earthquake and tsunami.
DeleteFukushima Diani, down the coast, only avoided their own triple meltdown because they still had one functional external power line to feed their cooling systems.
Not going to give anyone a recipe, but even a minimally trained group of insurgents could hold a plant hostage with this knowledge. Even without gaining access to the its control rooms or containment buildings.
If I were Tom Clancy, I’d even say that such a scenario would be perfect for some other nation’s ‘cavalry’ to ride in and save the day. Since it would take 8-12 hours after the cutoff of power for the situation to become critical.
Night Night Buddies, I hitting the rack, got grandkids to play with tomorrow!
ReplyDeleteLet's hope the world stays safe.
Oh and we miss a little important point, Right Sector are not Nazis. They are even not an fascist, they are rather right ultra nationalists. Only Russians name them both to demonize and use a symbol of "Fighting Fascist/Nazis" for inside propaganda.
ReplyDeleteThey are nationalists, they believe in Ukraine and Ukraine people. They would not create another melt down because that would hit the Ukrainian land and people... this is just against the believes and ideology of them. Yeah, probably they would not have problem with doing that in Russian power plant but decidedly not in Ukrainian one.
I call this a propaganda bullshit.
The Right Sector are in fact anti-semitic neo-Nazis as one can see here.
Deletetypical left wing talking point. - Everyone the left hates, is labeled a nazi, racist, homophobe, whatever.
Deletehave you heard of godwin's law, donny boy?
"The Voice of Russia reported...."
ReplyDeletecase closed....
The New York Times reported...."
Deletecase re-opened
new york time is less credible than "voice of russia"
ReplyDeletenazi, racist, islamophobe, homophobe, blah, blah BLAH.
This Left wing BS is just that....
Right Sector in not a pro russian group much less run by Kremlin. So far the only foreigners these guys were shaking hands with are from EU and US.
ReplyDeleteAs for left wing BS what kind of proof wold satisfy you that Right sector is a Nazi group
http://nsnbc.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/nazi_punk_ukraine.jpg
http://nsnbc.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Oleh_Tyahnybok_Svoboda_Ukraine.jpg
http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/ll_a_s/2014/Jan/31/LiveLeak-dot-com-b36_1391163762-TD6Nory2_1391164091.jpg?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818bdd7964947d2d67003&ec_rate=230
http://pontiactribune.com/?p=144
... eeee Mr.T you know that you show pics of Ołeh Tiahnybok leader of „Swoboda” party that is ultra nationals and indeed anti-Semitic ( but not classified as neo-Nazi or Fascist ) not an Right Sector right?
DeleteYes i know ,he was just the one US politicians liked to shake hands with ,'Swoboda' (freedom) party is just as bad as the Right sector but unlike Right sector ,swoboda party is in the goverment an runs various ministries.
DeleteAt least there is some effort now to classify Right Sector as a Terrorist organisation in EU.
People in US might no be familiar with situation in EU but we are seeing rise of nazi parties in many European countries ,ironicaly many in countries which suffered most under German occupation ,people that fought the Nazis are mostly dead now so collective memories seem to be fading.
If you know that you show "Swoboda" pics then why you sign it as Right Sector?
DeleteI'm not from US, I'm a Pole and live with those dudes doors by doors, I have a pretty better understanding of them then as I see you. The "Swoboda" is maybe not full neo-Nazi party but they are very close, strong ultras with very radical views. We and even I personally clash with them when they try to disrupt prayers on place of massacre in Hutcie Pieniackiej.
On other hand I know some dudes from Right Sector, they are not a single organisation, they don't have even central leadership or chain of command. They are group of different nationalistic groups, some of them are close to fascist movement, some are more moderate. As group they are not anti-Semitic ( as true Fascist ) they believe in great Ukraine and Ukrainian people, they don't support neither integration with EU or ZSRR 2.0 ( aka Russian Federation ) but after Majdan they are slightly more pro-EU.
What I think that you don't understand that the main ideology enemy in Ukraine of Right Sector is "Swoboda". They think that "Swoboda" serve money and establishment and not common people.
They are not terrorists, what I don't understand why Russia made them scapegoat and create them as the biggest "terrorist" organisation in Europe when a lot bigger and more radical "Swoboda" is ok.
The biggest irony is that the largest neo-Nazi organisation is in Russia, now that is something Stalin would not foresee heh?
PS. calling Right Sector a terrorists is one big Bullshit.
I'm somewhat reassured by the fact that they were neo nazi. Its a fucked up world we live in.
ReplyDeletelol
ReplyDeletethere r no nazis in ukraine
stop drinking russian kool-aid
Before joining the party, a few words of caution: this is my vers personal and very biased opinion, based on what my grand-father (זיכרונו לברכה) used to tell me about WW2: "there is only one thing worse than a German nazi, and that's a Ukrainian nazi" ... Just a side-note for those who would be tempted to deny there is such a thing in Ukraine ! That being said, let's not get into supersonic panic mood about this nuclear power plant take-over. First of all, the aim of such an action is certainly not to start WW3 or Chernobyl 2: basically, the nuclear power plant operation is a form of blackmail intended for those in power in Kiev, letting them know that the only organisations with the will and ability to protect the country and its infrastructures are the right wing groups. Better be careful about dismissing them before forming a new government coalition after the May 25th presidential elections. That's the message they want to get accross and I think Turchinow and Jatseniuk got that message loud and clear.
DeleteNow as far as the nature of those right wing groups is concerned, you have on the one side "Svoboda" (="Freedom") party, formerly known as the "national-social party of Ukraine". This is an extremely right wing, antisemitic organisation, deeply rooted in Ukrainian nationalism and WW2 ukrainian nazis. Just Two facts about Svoboda: up until 2010, the party's logo was not the yellow hand on blue background, but the "Wolfangel" an old Germanic rune that used to be the symbol of the 2nd SS Panzer-Division "Das Reich" (famous for its numerous massacres of civilians on Eastern and Western European front). Second fact about Svoboda, the Simon Wiesenthal Center listed it in 2012 among the 10 worst antisemitic organisations in the world. In the 2012 parliamentary elections, Svoboda scored 10,44 % of the ballots nationwide, scoring as much as 38 % in its west-ukrainian stronghold of Galicia. So they can't be discarded nor disregarded as a political force.
Right Sektor is a different sort of animal. Basically, all those who think Svoboda is being too soft join Right Sektor. As it has been mentioned, it's actually not one party but an organisation made up of various militant groups, the 3 most important ones being: "Trizub" (Trident), the "Patriots of Ukraine", the UNA-UNSO (Ukrainian National Assembly - Ukrainian People's Self-Defense) and "White Hammer" (guess the name says it all). Right Sektor doesnt count for much in terms of ballots, but its militant basis makes it a major actor in the quelling of the unrest in the East (through the numerous members who enlisted in the national guard). Some people within the mainstream parties in power in Kiev might also consider "Right Sektor" as some sort of "useful idiots" (thank you Lenin), but they might be misguided as to who has the real power, ie who holds the gun and has his finger on the trigger.
Having said all this, I need to add I'm no communist lover, no Putin fan and no leftist or humans rights fanatic. But considering where i come from and knowing that part of the world better than most posters here, i can say i have no love left for the lunatic fringe in Kiev. I hope they come to a peaceful agreement, letting everybody feel safe and free, but if not, let them sort out their own mess. I wouldn't put a single US citizen in harm's way for this bunch of cleptomaniacs who have done nothing than pillaging their own country and putting money in their pockets for about 20 years ...
Basically, i think it would be very wise to remember once more George Washington's farewell address: no "entanglements in foreign affairs, especially those of Europe". After Iraq and Afghanistan, it should be clear that once you broke it, you own it ... so if you don't want to own a dead asset, worth 20 billions USD in liabilties for this year alone, and which has civil war written all over it, better stay away from it !
Russia is now rushing to be a nuclear power with most of its plants are on nuclear technology. However it has ten biggest power stations in Russia include four hydroelectric power facilities, four nuclear power stations, and two gas-fired power stations.
ReplyDelete