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I don't usually keep up with Chinese sub developments so this caught me by surprise. The Type 032 is purported to be the largest conventionally powered sub in development and its firepower is beyond impressive. Vertically launched anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and if I'm not mistaken even two tubes for ICBM's? That's crazy smart. If this sub is standardized then every one of them has a strategic mission as well as the usual attack boat duties.
It's not that smart Sol, it's pretty stupid even for a conventional subs. You do not put all eggs in the same basket, good HK sub is not good Boomer and vice versa. Torpedo & cruise missiles are good combination but if you add a ICBM's that just nightmare. In other words, if something is for everything, it's for nothing.
ReplyDeleteBut as design of conventionally powered of that size, well it's indeed interesting.
it is if you're trying to ensure that you have the ability to retaliate no matter what the size of the retaliatory strike is. if they make 100 of these subs then that means that in case of war the US must knock out 100 subs in order to negate the possibility of a US city being blown off the map.
Deletetactically its stupid. strategically its brilliant. additionally i'm guessing that they're ICBMs...what if they're actually ballistic anti-ship silos? that means that instead of swarms of cruise missiles they can do swarms of ballistic missiles against a carrier.
Solomon,
DeleteThe Type 032 makes neither a great SLBM sub nor an attack sub. SLBM subs and attack subs have different design requirements and should be optimized differently.
A sub is a crowded platform where space is premium and imagine what additional attack capabilities that the Type 032 could have had if it lacked the SLBM VLS. After all, this sub cannot sail all the way to California coast in order to launch its nuclear SLBMs, the furthest it can go and return is Japan, so the US mainland is safe.
Slowman,
Deletei'm well aware of traditional thinking on the need to separate the different roles of submarines. however we're seeing a blurring of that even in the US fleet.
the cruise missiles subs have a secondary attack role and can be flexed into that mission. additionally attack subs have always been used for intel collection and now they're being used by SOCOM to insert special ops forces.
a blurring of the lines when it comes to armaments seems like an evolutionary step. besides we've been doing the same with surface ships forever why not with undersea vessels.
Hmm... evolution, yes it's true but not in all aspects. Sub tech is highly complicated, you can't create something that is good in all roles because we just don't have that type of tech, for now of course.
DeleteLet me compare that idea with one type of surface ship. Soviet Project 1143, cruiser/carrier hybrid. They put all eggs in one basket but did it serve well?
Maybe in the future of DSV Seaquest we will have the solid subs for all this roles... Oh btw: I remember that amazing fan creation, let me find it... ah here it is: http://atlantisdsv.newcapequest.com/library/renown.htm
Solomon,
DeleteMaking attack subs to carry cruise missiles and adding a decompression chamber is one thing, make it to carry nuclear SLBM is another. SLBM VLS imposes a significant weight and complexity penalty to a sub's design; after all it is a nuclear warhead we are talking about. So the best option is still the dedicated nuclear-powered SLBM subs + AIP attack subs, because there is no need to add nuclear weapons launch capability cost to all subs.
When a nuclear weapon is launched against another nuclear state, then we are looking at an all out nuclear war.
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ReplyDeleteJSF sub?
ReplyDeleteI don't think its to extreme, don't some western submraines feature ASMs, with the relative speed and range of torpedoes advanced ASMs might seem like a good alternative, especially given modern decoy systems on European boats.
ReplyDeleteAs for the ICBMs, if there are to be any, they might just be small ones with short range, for attacking Carrier fleets, faster than a high-supersonic, probably even low-hypersonic missile, and with greater range they would make an ideal launch platform for a nuclear strike against us carrier groups.
Whats the point of this submarine apart from propoganda scaring the living daylights out of East Asian Politicians ?
ReplyDeleteI hope they do call it the Godzilla class, and take for emblems, pictures of Godzilla gnawing on iconic asian building like the tokyo tower, taipei 101, and a few of them ripping carriers apart. That would be a sense of humour don't you think?
DeleteMost Honorable Premier of the Glorious and Everlasting Communist Han People of China are proud to present to the world our Most Magnificient of creations in the form of the Gojira Class Submarine. Our great benevolent masters deemed it obviously appropriate to name this weapon of Mass Nationalistic Pride after a Japanese Filthy War Creature. Need the sublime China Public TV remind the world, including our fraternal comrades Taiwan how this Munificence of Chinese Engineering makes a Chinese loyalists Penis yes Penis grow 3 inches more for a grand total of 5..........wait, where the heck did this come on the script ?
DeletePerfect.
DeleteIs there any information about how it is to be deployed? Is it designed to patrol alone as our SSBNs do, or, as part of a protected fleet asset ala the Soviet doctrine. That information might clear-up a few questions about how much of a concern it might be to the U.S. The Chinese sure aren't being shy about their aspirations. What is our administration's response?
ReplyDeleteDo we have a plan? Am I missing something?
William James, you arent missing much. Its the chinese who are missing a lot with this. First, its a diesel-electric rattlebox weighing 6000 tons plus according to best estimates. It is estimated in its diesel electric avatar to have endurance of not more than 30-45 days max making it a bit of a bother to stealthily slip across the pacific and trouble california with its missiles. As regards targeting Japan and Taiwan, even Chinese Land based TEL's and Silos can do the job. Its too soon to say anything about this submarine because i am sure than even majority of PLAN people dont know much about this submarine
DeleteCommon this isn't a naming competition now, we don't need to call it the 6,000 tonne rattle beast, even if that is a good name! besides thats just the steady hum the Godzilla makes. I wouldn't put it past them for this to actually be a nuclear powered vessal if it is going to be so large.
DeleteOh no, no, no we are not building nuclear powered attack submarines, we definitely wouldn't do that, and we don't have those, these are just 20 coal powered steamers, that just happen to be the size of nuclear powered submarines. Glorious peace loving china would never do...
Gentlemen, it is a research or test vessel, a one-off not production.
ReplyDeleteAm I missing something? Are they definitely ballistic missile tubes? Could they be some sort of sensor domes or something like that? I don't know a whole lot about subs, only one I was ever on is that old one parked next to USS Alabama.
ReplyDeleteNah Josh, that's missile tubes ( not 100% but strong 99% sure ) they are highly similar to old Soviet Project 629 subs know as Golf in NATO. http://en.valka.cz/attachments/5029/Projekt_629_002_rez.jpg
Deleteit sounds stupid at first, but I'm with Solomon. The more conventional boomer fleet for China would wind up being a very small number of large, loud boats that could be easily hunted down and eliminated, or sidelined due to maintenance and dock time. The loss of a single boomer equipped with dozens of warheads would be catastrophic to the PRC national security, national pride, and political detterence.
ReplyDeleteBut if they could make a bunch of small subs with fewer weapons each, and make them decently capable of defending themselves against surface ASW threats, and make the US navies SSNs play underwater whackamole in the shallow waters where alot of thier advantages are nullified or negated, then you could have a pretty survivable platform.
Not only that, but should a captain fall in love with old Tom Clancy novels, and set sail for a capitalist port... well he only has two weapons. Not a great position to be in, but better then him having 20 nukes to shoot or sell to the highest biddder. A diesel electric with limited range ensures that it won't sail too far away should the political officer(s) step out of the torpedo tube for a midnight swim. Sometimes the most dangerous enemy, is the one you feed and cloth arm yourself.
They're boomers, they're not meant to fight, they are meant to survive, deter, and threaten. These cockroaches of the deep could ensure that there would always be at least 2 or 3 at sea, and they would ensure that anyone who messed with China would find themselves missing a pair of major cities.