range vehicles are striped of any useful gear, drained of all fluids and then placed in a bare configuration on the test range. additionally that was an old M48. spaced armor? nope. the same applies for the truck. no matter how good the fuzing it was gonna punch through that panel van type vehicle with ease....without detonating inside.
The heat jet traveled 10+ feet after detonation & penetration of the turret side and still had the energy focus to penetrate the front lower plate of the tank. In this case, the distance from detonation & penetration to final penetration is the impressive part.
On the DAGR & fuse issue, yes, DAGR has a delayed fuse. In this video they either forgot to set it or it failed. Had the fuze delayed, the destruction of the van would have been total and similar to the the target van in this earlier DAGR video (0:40 mark).
you never want to totally destroy your target vehicles because the cleanup is already tough enough when they have holes punched in them. most of the time they're using inert warheads and are mostly testing targeting.
the destruction on the truck was already impressive and i'm sure if they used a live warhead it would have totally obliterated it....i'm betting it was a targeting test and what you're seeing is kinetic effects and not explosives.
It was a live warhead (see the 1:15 mark) that detonated a foot or two from the vehicle and most of the vehicle is still intact (1:55 mark).
Since it detonated outside the vehicle, most of the shrapnel and explosive force was wasted.
There is no reason to test a live warhead and not intend to verify the terminal effects of said warhead.
That being said, it may have been a test to see the effects of a premature detonation as an internal detonation would be the preferred method of attack.
see, this is what I was talking about at the Future MBT discussion post here a couple of weeks back. Take a standard existing tank turret- T90, Leopard 2 etc. Fit a detachable missile housing on both sides of the turret housing 1 or 2 missiles each. The housing should be compatible to handle Javelins, Spikes and HellFires or any guided ATGM of your choice. Fly an Apache or UAV or AWACS with advanced radars and a Link 16 type data linkage system over the Armored Formation and what you have there is your own Mobile Precision Artillery of Sorts. Take opposition armor out at 6-10 kilometers away even before the main engagement happens, If it happens. What you get then is a 10 kilometer No-Go zone, the type of zone navy ships are used to around every single tank, repeat, every single tank with a flying radar or some ground based target designator. Through the eyes of a Cavalry Veteran, that 10 kilometers of space is not space.............but Stand Off Armor. Also, every time enemy Mechanized Infantry get to hear the presence of your tanks over their radio, they are going to jump off from their APC's and IFV's severly hampering their mobility, If they climb on the roofs of their APC's makes them more vulnerable to just about everything.
Sounds like a good idea, though I was under the impression that the ranges you would be dealing with would be more like 3-5km rather than ten. I'll admit to not knowing really anything about missiles other than a little about TOW. It could help you cover a wide screening or denial are like you mentioned with the cavalry or give your vehicles a heck of an opening punch. My thought from a few years ago was that we should have rocket kits for our armored vehicles like the WW2 Caliope Shermans. If you wanted you could something like that laser guidance kit for the 2.5 in rockets that the helicopters use. Mostly just daydreaming though...
Its also a good idea when being outnumbered, to have 2-4 7-10Km range powerful 1KM/s ATGMs that can be quickly ripple-fired, from outside of the enemies engagement radius, when you are outnumbered or want to push above your weight. With a small contingent of gun launched missiles with a greater effective range, than the kinetic penetrators, to boot.
You don't want to be in a situation where you are outranged, fire-support, well you need to radio that in, maybe it isn't available, maybe your comms are somehow being jammed, then they need to get ready, this takes like 2Mins at least even for a SP-art that is not deployed, then they need to fire their artillery shells, by that time the enemy may have killed you already.
Josh O, The Israelis have a Spike-ER which has a range of 8 Kilometers, also they have a Spike-NLOS which has a range of 25 Kilometers, which they have been testing on the back of their version of the HUMVEE. You can see it here- http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/6/1026.pdf I'd rather have more explosive killing power, or a tandem warhead or for that matter more velocity if I were asked to sacrifice the range from 25KM to 10KM. The added advantage of having a proven weapon cutting R&D time lag and the big What-If question is also good.
In contrast to a cannon round a Javelins, Spikes and HellFires travel at slow speeds.
Russia already deploys CIWS to protect radar systems against HARM. It is a small step to enhance such systems to kill slow flying missiles (200 m/s). At a range of 12 km such a missile travels for 1 minute!
Witness the power of the Hellfire!!!
ReplyDeleteIt hit the side of the turret and the HEAT jet went through through the whole tank (internal crap and all) then exited out the front-lower plate.
So much for Spaced Armor defeating HEAT warheads :)
Is it just me or should that DAGR missile have a delayed detonation fuse so it can explode INSIDE the target instead of the OUTSIDE.
range vehicles are striped of any useful gear, drained of all fluids and then placed in a bare configuration on the test range. additionally that was an old M48. spaced armor? nope. the same applies for the truck. no matter how good the fuzing it was gonna punch through that panel van type vehicle with ease....without detonating inside.
Delete^This. Also I'm pretty sure they do have a delayed DAGR fuse.
DeleteSol, I think you missed my point.
DeleteThe heat jet traveled 10+ feet after detonation & penetration of the turret side and still had the energy focus to penetrate the front lower plate of the tank. In this case, the distance from detonation & penetration to final penetration is the impressive part.
On the DAGR & fuse issue, yes, DAGR has a delayed fuse. In this video they either forgot to set it or it failed. Had the fuze delayed, the destruction of the van would have been total and similar to the the target van in this earlier DAGR video (0:40 mark).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPuk8CbCLyc
you never want to totally destroy your target vehicles because the cleanup is already tough enough when they have holes punched in them. most of the time they're using inert warheads and are mostly testing targeting.
Deletethe destruction on the truck was already impressive and i'm sure if they used a live warhead it would have totally obliterated it....i'm betting it was a targeting test and what you're seeing is kinetic effects and not explosives.
It was a live warhead (see the 1:15 mark) that detonated a foot or two from the vehicle and most of the vehicle is still intact (1:55 mark).
DeleteSince it detonated outside the vehicle, most of the shrapnel and explosive force was wasted.
There is no reason to test a live warhead and not intend to verify the terminal effects of said warhead.
That being said, it may have been a test to see the effects of a premature detonation as an internal detonation would be the preferred method of attack.
Premature detonation? Sounds like a personal problem....
DeleteApologies but the door was wide open and I know several were thinking it.
A missile against a van?
ReplyDeleteI guess a cannon round is much cheaper: http://youtu.be/jBwt6KyCFTI?t=2m35s
and far more effective.
see, this is what I was talking about at the Future MBT discussion post here a couple of weeks back. Take a standard existing tank turret- T90, Leopard 2 etc. Fit a detachable missile housing on both sides of the turret housing 1 or 2 missiles each. The housing should be compatible to handle Javelins, Spikes and HellFires or any guided ATGM of your choice. Fly an Apache or UAV or AWACS with advanced radars and a Link 16 type data linkage system over the Armored Formation and what you have there is your own Mobile Precision Artillery of Sorts. Take opposition armor out at 6-10 kilometers away even before the main engagement happens, If it happens. What you get then is a 10 kilometer No-Go zone, the type of zone navy ships are used to around every single tank, repeat, every single tank with a flying radar or some ground based target designator. Through the eyes of a Cavalry Veteran, that 10 kilometers of space is not space.............but Stand Off Armor. Also, every time enemy Mechanized Infantry get to hear the presence of your tanks over their radio, they are going to jump off from their APC's and IFV's severly hampering their mobility, If they climb on the roofs of their APC's makes them more vulnerable to just about everything.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a good idea, though I was under the impression that the ranges you would be dealing with would be more like 3-5km rather than ten. I'll admit to not knowing really anything about missiles other than a little about TOW. It could help you cover a wide screening or denial are like you mentioned with the cavalry or give your vehicles a heck of an opening punch. My thought from a few years ago was that we should have rocket kits for our armored vehicles like the WW2 Caliope Shermans. If you wanted you could something like that laser guidance kit for the 2.5 in rockets that the helicopters use. Mostly just daydreaming though...
DeleteIts also a good idea when being outnumbered, to have 2-4 7-10Km range powerful 1KM/s ATGMs that can be quickly ripple-fired, from outside of the enemies engagement radius, when you are outnumbered or want to push above your weight. With a small contingent of gun launched missiles with a greater effective range, than the kinetic penetrators, to boot.
DeleteYou don't want to be in a situation where you are outranged, fire-support, well you need to radio that in, maybe it isn't available, maybe your comms are somehow being jammed, then they need to get ready, this takes like 2Mins at least even for a SP-art that is not deployed, then they need to fire their artillery shells, by that time the enemy may have killed you already.
Josh O, The Israelis have a Spike-ER which has a range of 8 Kilometers, also they have a Spike-NLOS which has a range of 25 Kilometers, which they have been testing on the back of their version of the HUMVEE. You can see it here-
Deletehttp://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/6/1026.pdf
I'd rather have more explosive killing power, or a tandem warhead or for that matter more velocity if I were asked to sacrifice the range from 25KM to 10KM. The added advantage of having a proven weapon cutting R&D time lag and the big What-If question is also good.
In contrast to a cannon round a Javelins, Spikes and HellFires travel at slow speeds.
ReplyDeleteRussia already deploys CIWS to protect radar systems against HARM. It is a small step to enhance such systems to kill slow flying missiles (200 m/s). At a range of 12 km such a missile travels for 1 minute!