NOTE: I've called this fight between Israel/Hamas a sideshow. I hold to that but the tactical lessons learned are beginning to stack up to a point where this has to be front and center for a military blog.
via Times of Israel.
A group of 30 IDF reserve soldiers notified their commanders that they would refuse to enter the Gaza Strip in M-113 armored personnel carriers, military vehicles designed by the US Army in the 1960s and first used during the Vietnam Warand then this...
Following the deadly battle in Shejaiya, Sami Turgeman, the commander of the IDF Southern Command, said that the army was aware of the M-113′s faults but did not have the means to provide full protection to every soldier entering the Strip.Just plain wow.
This is not the IDF that fought off several Arab armies.
These are not the warriors that rode into battle in antiquated MBTs and fought the Egyptians to a standstill and then took territory in the Sinai.
I DO NOT KNOW THIS IDF! This is disappointing. If these are the type of warriors that are protecting the Israeli nation then it won't last much longer. I am a supporter of Israel. My writings should make that clear....but this....this is bullshit. Perhaps I held the IDF to too high a standard?
Well, the old IDF troops of 60s were Holocaust survivors. Today's IDF troops are not.
ReplyDeleteYou can do anything after surviving the Holocaust.
yeah but pride and traditions are passed along through training. US Marines and Airborne Soldiers do it just like the guys that stormed Iwo Jima and parachuted into Normandy. these IDF reservists are not keeping up the traditions of those that came before and its got me punching walls.
DeleteThe 'old' IDF was fighting off clear invasions by (inept) opposing countries in mostly unoccupied terrain. This IDF is conducting punitive strikes on populations in cities.
DeleteAsk yourself what your motivation would be if you were defending your home from invasion, versus invading someone else's on a questionable pretext – with no clear condition for victory in sight.
While I share your dismay, consider the following contrast: in the US, soldiers are volunteers. Soldiers in combat units are certainly volunteers. In Israel, they are conscripts, including the vast majority of reservists. So you're going to have a mix of attitudes, including those more willing to disobey. And for better or worse, discipline has always been very different than the sort seen in US combat units. The article noted these are reservists who've been called up, but don't yet have orders to enter Aza. If they were actually getting ready to move out, I don't know if they would have done the same protest. But again, all of Israeli society is in the reserves, including the sorts who will use the newspapers to pursue all sorts of agendas. And, after all, you yourself have noted here on your blog that they have a legitimate complaint. I agree that this isn't the right time or place; but Israelis are not fans of the Charge of the Light Brigade. Do a search, and you will find that in every war and major operation in my lifetime there were small numbers of public, vocal dissenters and protesters in Israel. I'd be interested to know to what extent this was influenced by some political factors.
ReplyDeleteOn a side note, we had our moments with old and inferior equipment on several occasions. I comforted myself with the stories I'd heard about how the USMC always had to make do with less and older equipment - including some stories about borrowing or requisitioning from nearby Army units. And yet the Marines were the go-to guys who fought fiercely and victoriously and were feared by their enemies. The flip side of that is that the IDF has always prided itself on valuing the lives of soldiers. That is even cited as a motivator behind some of the designs like the Merkava chassis with the engine forward. So now some folks want to see that concern and claimed attitude in action. Were I there, I would go in no matter what; but look for a way to protest and complain later. I'll bet that most of these guys will, too.
I wouldn't make too much of it. I'm betting most of the Israeli public won't, either.
Note, by the way, that this is a reported group of 30 out of 60,000 reservists called up. The way I know Israelis, that's not so significant.
DeleteIf I remember correctly in last decade or two IDF had problems with soldiers, too many avoid service and morale is not too high. That is not the same breed of Israelis that fought and win against attack from many vectors against young country. There was even something about quality of recruits from different regions, something that Jerusalem is praying, Haifa making money and Tel Aviv party hard... I may mess up. It was that too many young men and woman avoid service because they try to pretend that they are some religious group or persons from Tel Aviv that are child's of rich persons that pay that they would be not drafted.
DeleteHell they even mention of special net force of IDF that follow net profiles of those hard religious persons if they abide the religious laws. Like they catch some girls that were party hard in times of religious holiday or something and post it on Facebook.
Agree with what Mordechai wrote above and would tend to disagree with Shas and you Solomon. Maybe you're seeing the events unfold from afar, which has is upsides but also downsides.
DeleteTo emphasize again on what Mordechai wrote, the wars fought by Tsahal until the invasion of Lebanon in the 1980s, wether defensive or preventive operations, were conflicts in which the survival of the State of Israel and the Jewish people were at stake. This is definitely not the case here.
Also, as pointed out by Mordechai, the IDF is a citizen army first and foremost. Thus it reflects various political and religious beliefs that are being held among the population. And it's definitely not the first time that disent is being voiced in the armed forces. It has been a feature present for long years and something we should take pride in, as an expression of our democratic traditions, even if we disagree with those who disagree. Israeli society has always been much more polarized and antagonistic than most foreigners believe. It's only in times of national emergency, that there is such a thing as national unity. Those who are surprized by what is going on now (which is in fact really not a worrying trend) should look back at the blame game that went on after the Yom Kippur War or during and after the operation "Peace in Galilea" (which gave birth to "Peace Now" movement by Lebanon War veterans), the unrest in certain reserve units during the First Intifada, the protest action by reserve air force pilots refusing to fly missions over the West Bank in the 1990s. etc. The list goes on and on. But when it comes to defending our survival against an enemy who's out to exterminate us, I'm pretty sure even the guys who refuse to serve in M-113s in Gaza would be there and ready to go.
Now as for the comment about new generation of Tsahal soldiers who are not made of the "right stuff", that my friend is a complaint that i've been hearing and witnessing from comrades and colleagues in most western countries and armies. It's not a question of draftees vs volunteers, it is a generational issue ... Today's young guys are not as mentally and physically strong, they're more prone to injury and have a weaker morale, they tend to perform more poorly on all levels and this is a phenomenon that you can see in Tsahal, in the USMC, in UK and French forces, basically all over the Western world ... It's the 'plasma warrior" or "playstation soldier" syndrom. Every country may have certain distinctive features with regard to that, Israel certainly has, but it's a fundamental and basic trend which, by the way, also explains, some of the focus being put by the US on the recruitment of female volunteers in combat units (but that's another story)
You're attributing this to timidity.
ReplyDeleteIt could be exactly the opposite. perhaps they're tired of dying over chickensh*t ROEs in clunky coffins, and itching to settle this more permanently so they won't have to go back and do it all over again every 5-10 years.
People at the pointy end can be funny like that.
Aesop, that's an interesting theory. I would've been one of those guys (and was, during the First Intifada). But the guys that are determined and angry to take care of business aren't usually the ones (in Israel) to make such a protest. These will be generally good guys who think the gov't is too ready to sacrifice them; or maybe even left-wingers who have little bit of a political agenda. We can't really know without knowing who they are.
DeleteIn any case I doubt it is real timidity. When called upon, nearly all Israelis right and left respond to real, apparent need and do what has to be done.
those are all good theories but my position is this.
Deletethe old skool guys that have come before....jokers like me...are the ones that scream and shout about defective equipment and the need to improve it. US Marines saddle up and ride in whatever is provided....active or reservist. i don't give a shit if its hillbilly armor or not.
the old skool guys are suppose to have enough of a connection to do the screaming and shouting for the guys doing the fighting so they can focus on the mission and hopefully comeback safe. thats why we have the Marine Corps Association, professional publications and a few blogs like my own.
but to cut a reservist slack because he's a reservist? sorry can't do it. most USMC reservists are former active duty and the ones that aren't are usually trying to get some active duty time.
so i'm still at a loss on this. i'll chew on it some more but even if it was one it would be one too many.
Overall, I agree with you, Sol. I've looked at three other Israeli newspapers online, and I've been watching the TV news in English and Hebrew - and I haven't seen any other mention of this story. So it can't be making much of a splash.
DeleteFWIW, I several times quoted Charge of the Light Brigade on my way into an objective. "ours is not to reason why; ours is but to do and die." I pray all the rest of these IDF youngsters will return home safely.
try saying that for a 200 mile trip into Iraq in the back of an AAV.
Delete"try saying that for a 200 mile trip into Iraq in the back of an AAV"
DeleteHah! I can't imagine. I think the distance from the border up the coast to Beirut was under a 100 miles. And I didn't go that far. But I can't stand being closed in a sardine can, anyway.
Again Solomon, you're mixing up what happens in an all volunteer "elite" force and a basic infantry unit made of reservist citizens who haven't asked to get into action. need i remind what state the US Armed Forces were during the Vietnam War ? In those days, what happened in the US with recruits burning the draft papers, active duty soldiers deserting, COs and NCOs being 'fragged' was 100 times worse and testimony of a state of dereliction that took the US about 10-15 years to overcome in the armed forces. Personally, I have no issue with reservists (who are citizens first) voicing concern and even disenting over the use of certain equipment. It's not like these guys have refused to carry out a mission, which would be tantamount to insubordination. Let's not get carried away here. Tsahal only way to be is as a citizen army, Israel is too small a country to rely on a voluntary force only, so we have to deal with the ups and downs of the cards that have been dealt to us.
DeleteAs for a 200 mile trip into Iraq, coming from the south, peace of cake, it's mostly a large and flat sandbox ! Try Kabul to Kunduz through Salang Pass, or to Khost province and then we'll talk hemorrhoids ;-))
It isn't the M-113. It is putting an M-113 (modified) in a situation where the troops with it should already be dismounted.
ReplyDeleteFinite budget. Look at all of the money spent on airpower, Dolphin submarines, SAM and ABM missiles, F35s....and these guys are riding in old M113s. The rest of IDF, the flyboys and sailors, get newer stuff except for the grunts. I'd be a little ticked, too.
ReplyDeleteIt's like the lessons from 2006 have been unlearned.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/namer-israeli-leopard-coming-to-the-usa-06620/
http://defense-update.com/20140114_namer_production.html#.U9ApVPldVlo
OTOH, maybe it is a side-effect of the Hamas strategy.
DeleteHamas spends hundreds of thousands on crude, cheap rockets while the IDF is forced to spend hundreds of millions on Iron Dome technology, money that is tied up on defense measures rather than on updating armored vehicles.
American Mercenary (i believe it was him) said that money would have better spent not on Iron Dome but on better armor to go after the rocket launchers.
Deletei think thats the view of most professional warriors. the problem is does military common sense trump political expediency or political feel good measures?
Actually, I think Iron Dome has definitively changed the game. It wasn't a waste. I shudder to think what the casualty and damage figures in Israel would be like if each of the intercepted rockets had landed in a neighborhood or street in an Israeli town. And that difference has done a lot for morale - a very important factor when the home front is now the front. I don't know how else the money could have been managed, but Iron Dome is paying for itself very nicely. Iron Dome and all the new shelters are saving lives and morale.
Deletethis is going to sound cold but i wonder. the further a public is removed from the dangers of the nation, the less they're inclined to support the military. i see it in the US and i'm seeing it in Israel. additionally i'm wondering if the Iron Dome doesn't give the detractors of Israel an excuse to blame the IDF when the rocket attacks don't stop. on MSNBC all we hear is that the IDF is doing an operation against the poor Hamas and no one is talking about them launching rockets, avoiding chances for a peace etc...
Deletei just think that a lightning campaign to go after the rockets...saying the hell with public opinion and we're going to stop this madness would do more to get minds right. additionally i marvel at how supplies are being sent during these breaks in combat to the people that you're actually fighting. Hamas gets the food and medical supplies before the Palestinian people do! WE ALL KNOW THAT! yet you're still feeding the same people trying to kill Israeli's! thats madness! ok. ignore the above. it turned into a rant but fighting with one hand behind your back is a recipe for disaster. ask the US military.
I don't think Iron Dome is a waste of funds either, I just think Hamas realizes the Israeli's defense budget isn't infinite and if it can force the IDF to spend it on Iron Dome as opposed to Namer, so much the better for Hamas
DeleteIron Dome only target missiles that the system determines will hit a protected area. If it detects the missile is off target, it won't waste an interceptor on it. And it permits the IDF some psychological standoff distance because it doesn't have to intervene or use counterbattery every time Hamas fires rockets.
But, the temptation to hide behind Iron Dome would be a mistake and thankfully the Israeli's haven't taken that bate. I think it is smart of them to integrate civil defense and preparedness with Iron Dome. And let's face it, they are being chased into shelters and hearing warning sirens on a daily basis. They are hardly removed from the dangers of the nation.
I think if there are savings in the IDF's budget, it can be found elsewhere as in delay or avoid purchasing F35s. Just half a dozen F35s would pay for a couple hundred Namers.
Agree with Solomon here about public being unaware or removed from dangers the nation faces as being less inclined to confront those dangers, but certainly Israel is a country where the awareness of the dangers is pretty high, when compared to US for example.
DeleteAs for Iron Dome, it is aimed first at providing protection against Hezbollah rockets and missiles, and against threats coming from furthere East. There are certain technical and ballistic issues with using it against systems fired from a place such as Gaza. Guess you understand what I mean.
The Iron Dome has turned into a strategic weapon system, in making it possible for Israeli civilians all over the country to go on with their daily routines and despite the slowing of the economy (tourism, reservists called up, general mood influencing purchasing habits, etc.) the country is functioning fairly normally. Without Iron Dome it would not have been possible. It also gives the political leaders a lot of flexibility. They are now talking about extending the aims of the war (this is no longer an "operation").
ReplyDeleteI am also upset about the slow pace of the militay tempo and cautious advance. But we don't have all the information.
Additionally combat losses in Israel have a far higher impact on the Israeli society and this will influence command decisions. Israel is also wary of the "second Goldstone inquery" and its effect on the international political scene.
It must be remembered, that Gaza is a very difficuly terrain, highly built-up areas, crowded with non-combatants. Any fast slashing military action will inevitably cause many, many civilian deaths and wounded. Many soldiers would abhor carrying out orders that would cause many enemy non-combatant casualties. That would be counterproductive.
The soldiers' motivation is very high and no less than in other wars, but the conditions are far different than those in Sinai or the Golan heights. The 2006 Lebanon war is more like the present one, but even that was over a lot bigger territory and most of the civilian population left northward,leaving the combatants to hash it out.
It is easy to make judgements from our armchairs, but we do not have even half the info of what REALLY goes one in Gaza.
I must also admit that Hamas has put to good use all the funds it received in the last few years and they are giving back a lot of answers to Israel's might. The rocket firings have not stopped, the line soldiers are fighting back with bravery and effectively (the commanders are all in bunkers), so it is not a walk in the park.
However the IDF is led by commanders from the front echelons and the soldirs prevail over Hamas in CQB in most encounters.
I just don't understand thje underlying strategy of the Army Command.
There will be a lot of inqiries and combat analysis afterwards and I hope we'll hear the stories abot the Trophy and the Digital Command and control and the other technologies that are used in this war.
You just made the case that the Iron Dome is good because it makes war longer.
DeleteYou might want to rethink that some.
What alternative do you suggest? Being on the receiving end of artillery rockets and putting on a big smile?
DeleteThe Iron Dome system is a game changer. It will enable the IDF to conduct the war in a careful way to minimise casualties on our side, which is a very big issue in Israel.
The main point is that the war will only end if the political aims are met or a cease fire is imposed on Israel from outside. At this point in time even most of the Arab world (according to experts and commentators on TV) are not unhappy at Hamas is getting its chops kicked. We all are sorry for the hapless noncombatants that are caught in the middle. As to that the IDF is doing it's best to minimise Gazan civilian casualties using techniques, like calling the targeted house on the phone or doing a "knock on the roof" with small rockets before the big munitions are sent to make a housecall.
Me, personally, being on the receiving end of the Hamas rockets, I am very happy the system is in place and works as well it does. For me every penny spent on it was well spent.
Regarding the M113 that is still in use in the IDF due to budget problems, we have to remember that there will always be such problems and never enough good pieces of kit available. Nobody could predict this war and leaving these old personell carriers in service was a calculated risk.
One alternative is to bomb/seize the tunnels from Egypt that supply those rockets/components in the first place. Establish an exclusion zone on the southern border of Gaza and carefully control what is allowed to come through. Instead of expensively trying to knock those rockets down after they've been delivered and fired at you. You know, be proactive.
Deletettmedical, since Israel had to go into Gaza anyways since Israel will run out of smart Tamir missiles long before Hamas runs out of dumb rockets, why not just skip the step of relying on Iron Dome and go straight into "go into Gaza" but in modern armor, with dismount and artillery support, in a combined arms team fashion?
DeleteBecause from what my friends in Jerusalem (and other parts of Israel) have been telling me, Iron Dome has not been able to make life go on as normal and at best has given the civilian population a false sense of protection.
Perhaps these particular M-113's were old and prone to breakdowns that made them basically sitting ducks.
ReplyDeleteRiding old equipment that works is far different than old equipment that you know is not able to do the job.
If given a new vehicle would these 30 still refuse to insert?
That is the question.
The Old, "You would send a kid like this up in a crate like that" meme.
---
Iron dome is good n that it stave's off the final act of either capitulation to Hamas demands or going full Joshua at the walls by the IDF and the Israeli people.
The Kill a few till they quit or kill them all scenario.