NOTE: Check out American Mercenary's latest on the Gaza issue. Its well worth your time and in my opinion a must read.
Check out the above vid.
Did you see it? Do you notice the problem?
You have heavy armor operating in an urban setting without infantry out and about hunting anti-tank teams! You have the IDF being restrained by overly restrictive rules of engagement and you have them taking unnecessary casualties. I will not even dig into the issue of Hamas using civilians as shields...kinda cowardly in my opinion for warriors to hide behind non-combatants.
You have the same issue with the attempts to attack rocket launch locations...you have the same issue with tunnels.
The IDF is fighting this battle with one hand behind their backs and several fingers tied on the other. Political correctness does nothing but prolong conflicts and inflict increased casualties on both sides. Instead of a quick, sharp battle we're seeing a protracted one, not because of military necessity but because of political expediency/correctness/false morality.
Political correctness does not prevent commanders from disembarking their infantry and having them hunt AT teams ahead of the armor. Flawed tactics/doctrine does. Do you really believe that, on the company/platoon level, the best use of the capabilities they have is being made?
ReplyDeletePC can be blamed for unclear operational objectives, and a hesitancy to use civilian casualty multipliers like artillery. But this video only shows a tactical failure. The tank went down a long alley without it being scouted properly first. Dumb.
you start running infantry through those alley ways and you're going to start a tremendous fire fight that will triple the number of killed in hours. additionally you'll add to the tactical problem because you're going to get rock throwers mixed in with enemy infantry and anti-tank teams.
Deletenothing i've seen indicates that Hamas will pull back civilians so that there fighters can go toe to toe with the IDF.
thats what warriors would do but Hamas is just a terrorist organization. so where you see failure i see political correctness hamstringing another western fighting organization and liberal news media give aid to the enemy by not pointing it out.
Sol, what's the realistic alternative to sending troops through alleyways to scout for the transports? Running IFVs (hopefully empty ones) down streets to get killed? What's the infantry supposed to do then? Run home to Mommy? Wait for another $3M vehicle to risk picking them up? Wait for artillery to flatten the entire block and start everyone screaming about civilian casualties?
DeleteWWII was quite a bit before my time, and I'm no soldier, but I've heard stories that the way to avoid having your infantry shot up in the street was to blow holes in the walls of buildings with tanks or explosive charges, and have your infantry work their way forward *through* the buildings as much as possible. Is there some reason this can’t work today, apart from a lack of brains or patience? It’s got to be less civilian-unfriendly than calling down heavy artillery willy-nilly.
Hamas may be using human shields, or that may just be overblown propaganda. Probably a bit of both. But that doesn’t change the tactical situation any.
This is still the SOP in urban warfare.
DeleteAs for Hamas and civilians imagine Gaza populace per sq mile is above Miami or Boston (as they do not have high-rises its in reality even more crowded place,plus they are fenced-in nowhere to go.
What we see is that IDF is far from some super trooper force its just that they operate against arabs mostly 3rd rate iliterate morons that made them seem like stormtoopers in the past.
i say again. you run infantry through those streets and you're going to have a Fallujah, Hue City, Saigon, Mogadishu, Berlin and every other epic street fight known to modern infantry. you can blast spider holes in walls to your delight but once again you're asking for the UN and every liberal in America/Europe to go even crazier.
Deleteand lets talk casualties.
they're going to sky rocket.
Mr T. i don't think so. you're misreading my complaint. it isn't against the soldiers its against the policy makers that have pushed a policy that is once again putting those at the tip in greater danger than is necessary. quite honestly, i'm almost...not quite but almost advocating a scorched earth policy. warn. warn again. and then run through there with the full power of your combined arms task force. make liberal use of artillery (indirect fires...fuck the precision stuff). treat rock throwers as hostiles and be done with it.
Deletei contend that the reason why this hasn't been snuffed out once and for all is because the IDF is being forced to use half measures instead of decisively dealing with the threat that is Hamas once and for all.
This is how warfare looks in Ukraine
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG7Mty3gfLI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUDdE46bxSc
and in Gaza ,guys literary lighting a fuze on rockets and no targeting what so ever .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FKV-Ookhr8
I doubt commanders in the field are limited in use of tactics.
DeleteAs for scorched earth ,you do realise that you have 1.8mio people there in a open type prison (Snake Plissken 'Escape from New York' style http://images.thezooom.com/uploads/2012/07/Escape-from-New-York.jpg ) where they live under Hamas rule (which by the way was established by a 'coup' where they ousted Fatah )
Where's the other "monster" in the IDF arsenal that was to be part of the urban warfare tactics? I mean where's the famed (and feared) ARMOURED BULLDOZER?
DeleteSol, aren’t those soldiers there to fight?
DeleteLet’s say that whatever PC shackles you imagine the IDF being constrained by fall away tomorrow. Short of the ridiculous notion of them dropping a nuke, what would they do instead?
You would still have to press into a crowded city with infantry and tanks. What tactics are they supposed to use?
Hopefully not these, as demonstrated by the (not-PC-shackled) US in Fallujah:
http://youtu.be/2N-1E2F9pmc
Artillery shouldn’t have been needed there, and was only called in when those US troops failed, with an Abrams, a Bradley, and their own firepower, to take out a small squad of fighters holed up in a building. Because they didn’t have the equipment needed to do the job. Instead of moving in through buildings, they hid behind their armor and shot several million dollars of anti-tank ammo at that position uselessly before giving up and calling in the big guns that guarantee civilian deaths.
I hope the IDF isn’t being that retarded, and that they learned something from Lebanon. But when I see this video you posted, I really start to wonder. Are they too just hiding behind their armor (and a failure of doctrine) too?
ok. you need to take a step back. if you think that hands weren't tied in Fallujah then you know nothing about modern warfare. men died because of those restrictive ROE's and to say otherwise is to show ignorance of the facts.
DeleteSandywyrm says:
DeleteHopefully not these, as demonstrated by the (not-PC-shackled) US in Fallujah:
Huh?? Dude where are you getting that info? US troops were so restricted I'm surprised they didn't have to fight with paint guns.
This isn't breaking news, esp on this site, but PC bullshit is going to be the ruin of our civilization.
I actually agree with sandwyrm on this
DeleteInfantry need to be disembarked and need to be kicking in doors. Yes, there will be firefights. Yes, there will be casualties.
However, running heavy armor through Gaza with fewer initial casualties, completely sidestepping bad guys hiding in buildings is a zero sum game. It defeats the entire purpose of going there to begin with: fuck up bad guys firing rockets and pulling terrorist shenanighans. The importance of infantry in urban warfare cannot be overstated and the Israelis relying disproportionately on armor will result in more long term casualties and compel Hamas to up gun (which is what Hezbollah did).
Otherwise, such a exercise is fucking wasteful.
Yes Patrick, the US was so restricted in Fallujah that we had no problem dropping artillery, 2000 lb. bombs, or leveling whole blocks with AC-130 gunships. Yet we still failed to take more than a quarter of the city in that first battle. Because we were trying to zoom around through the streets in Humvees and Armor instead of taking the city block-by-block with infantry leading the way. As finally happened in the second battle.
DeleteAre the IDF securing Gaza block-by-block, the smart-but-slow way? Destroying tunnels and caches as they go? Or are they trying to zoom around and through enemy positions in their armor to attack rocket launch sites and suspected stockpiles, Mogadishu-style?
Are the IDF securing and clearing sections of Gaza of civilians (with the cameras watching), ensuring that only the fighters and their arms remain in the operational area? Or are they just plowing in piecemeal and hoping for the best?
Well the tank crew should not have parked their vehicle by an alleyway for starters. But the IDF does not have the guts to dismount and fight palestine, they just bomb them from the sky and blockade them destroying their economy. I suppose this is easy when you get billions of free money from america every year and palestine is dirt poor.
ReplyDeletefuck you. oh yes they do. everytime they've gone toe to toe they win. just like US soldiers and Marines. if you want to spout anti-western pro-Hamas bullshit find another website. this ain't the place for you. oh and if you're mad ... then good. eat shit and die.
DeleteBut winning a war is about more than winning individual battles Sol. Hamas may have shit for equipment, and may lose 5-10 fighters (and 20 civilians) for every Israeli they kill, and may depend on not fighting 'fair', but they have a better grasp of their long term goals, and the strategies needed to achieve them, than Israel does.
DeleteMaybe herding millions of people into tightly-packed, walled-in cities isn't so great when you actually need to go in there and smash something? Did anyone in Israel think about that? That was the first strategic failure.
the answer to your complaint also has a military answer. a brutal answer but an answer non-the-less. you send the Palestinians packing and make Gaza a vacation spot again for Israeli's and western tourists! the whole issue is this crazy ass two Palestinian state vs. one Jewish state solution that fucking liberals hoisted on Israel and they were too wishing for peace to see the trap.
Deletesend them packing. put Israeli settlers in there and the problem of Gaza goes away. then you only have to worry about is the West bank.
It has a hard-to-swallow political answer (for the Israelis) as well. Stop the apartheid, and negotiate a real peace with Hamas.
DeletePeace negotiations is not answer. Hamas says that they will reject any peace that gives the Jews a state.
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DeleteSol you are my hero, I love the way you tell it how it is. Everywhere I look the media is pushing the poor poor Gaza, evil Israel narrative. They keep talking about how many Palestinians have been killed. But guess what, a bunch more Israelis would be dead if Hamas weren't so inept.
DeleteHamas is a gang of shitdicks. They have pushed Israel into a corner and now Israel is doing what they have to do to survive.
Jacobite.NZ "palestine is dirt poor"
DeleteYep, Israel gets "billions of free money from america", but so do the "Palestinians" from their supporters. Just google 'arafat billions", the Palestinians are "dirt poor" due to those funds never actually reaching the people it was intended (or maybe it is reaching those people it was intended!) for. As long as there are poor/oppressed Palestinians, there will be the heart-string tug used to solicit donations, it's an industry.
I'm seeing the same with the billions being diverted from Afgan leaders into Property in Dubai's Palm luxury Villas. I bet the average American would love to live in the Dubai Palm Villas courtesy of the US Government (tax payer).
The truth is, both sides are well funded. What those funds have been used for, and where those funds actually are is open for discussion, but the fact both sides are receiving 'billions' is not up for dispute.
I currently live in the middle east and giving to the Palestinian cause is kind of expected, much like the Irish in the US were expected to donate to the IRA cause. At present maybe those funds are being reduced as other causes are also expecting donations
Let's not forget that Israelis have spent the last 100 years (since before the founding of the state) building a robust economy. Just look at the innards of some your phones and computers; or where some of your medications are made. The US gets a return on its foreign aid money in Israel in several ways-military, social/political, research and education collaboration. The Arabs have taken the billions intended for infrastructure, education, development and diverted it to personal accounts or spent it on weapons, tunnels, etc. Take a look at pictures of Gush Katif in Aza when Jews lived there, and compare them to Aza now. The very same place can support a successful export economy with nice homes; or have hate-filled, envious people living in squalor and misery. What return has the EU or the US gotten for all the money they've sunk into the black hole called Gaza or the PA? NONE of the things they've gotten from their investment in Israel.
DeleteI agree the Gazains are being treated with kid gloves. The number of deaths is very very low considering the amount of fire that is being applied and the number of targets being hit. Some of the civilian death may even be attributed to Hamas’s use of countermeasures against the Israel’s smart weapons. Note the sophisticated guided anti-tank and rebreather equipment that Hamas has been using. Why not laser, IR and GPS jamming equipment?
ReplyDeleteThe Israelis cannot afford the expense of using gobs of expensive smart weapons for months on end. Sometime in the future, the Israelis are going to run out of smart weapon and they will have to switch a large dumb bombs and artillery. And when they do, they are going to take that PR hit.
They need to prepare for that hit now. They need to switch the blame to Hamas. They need to make sure that everyone knows that the fighting is continuing only, because Hamas will not agree to stop firing rockets and stop digging invasion tunnels.
The Israelis need a big and sustained PR campaign against Islamists and BDS movements in the West. They need to destroy Islamist spokesmen and their apologists. They need to demonize the Islamist. They must make Islamist and their apologist evil. They need to come off defense and go on a PR offensive. They (and the USA) need to step up their PR game. (Note: we need to get the western reporters out of Gaza for safety reasons, because if they kill one, it will be a PR shit storm.)
Lastly Hamas is not going to agree to a truce unless the Damage goes up by an order or two of magnitude. So please drop a dozen 2000 pounders on the next Hama funeral or rally celebrating kidnapping. Declare a truce and warn people to evacuate the towns in North Gaza, then declare them a free fire zone, and then level these areas. (They will need a better name for the free fire zone or Kerry will go nuts.)
How do you call for "peace" when the other party calls for your immediate extermination as a pre-requisite?
ReplyDeleteHamas and/or Hizbullah, they don't want peace with Israel. With anyone.
Restrictive ROEs is a big part of the problem, and certainly why IDF casualties keep mounting. The Israeli Hebrew news broadcasts are talking about it. Infantry are complaining that they aren't allowed to properly 'clean out' a structure before entering. Pilots who tasked with close air support are complaining that they have to cancel targets, keeping them from supporting the troops on the ground the way they need to. Israeli mothers' sons are dying so that an Arab mother's son won't. That appeases somewhat the Israeli distaste of killing, and even world opinion (a very little bit) - but it won't win the war. Sol has already noted what it will take to do that. We've been here before, and still aren't willing to do what it will take to end the Hamas threat on Israel. And so IDF soldiers AND Israeli civilians will be at greater risk and even die; and the whole scenario will just be repeated soon. There are times and places where compassion becomes cruelty. That is classically the case here.
ReplyDeleteThat is very well said.
DeleteIt is a perverse example of western self destructive/suicidal tendencies in my opinion. With war, you either shit or get off the pot.
I looked at the video and saw the comments in American Mercenary. Some say that its not possible to really see what takes place but it may be Trophy blowing the AT out of the air.
ReplyDeleteRegarding CQB in Gaza between the Hamas and the IDF - there are no reports coming out from independent journalists as the IDF did not permit ANY reporters (Israeli included) to accompany the forces for reasons of operational security. The wounded soldiers in the hospitals have been asked (not interviewed) and some soldiers that come out action for resupply/r&r tell of face-to-face encounters in which they slaughter Hamas, being better trained and highly motivated. In Israeli society there are no secrets or "Holy Cows" and mistakes/lies/failures are fast come to the public. The story is that Hamas is better trained and highly motivated than in the last war, they are still getting their asses kicked. This is not reported by Hamas or any of the reporters on the "other" side. It was discussed on one TV program that the foreign press in Gaza is very careful not to report unfavourably an Hamas on pain of injury or worse; in fact no reports at all on Hamas fighters losses, only civilian casualties. We see on TV Aljazzeera here and BBC, CNN, FOX, etc.and all they show are ruins and civilian casualties but no outgoing rocket fire or Hamas fighting.
I am disturbed by the current IDF's slow and careful/cautious manner of operations; this is not typical of the IDF. There is a great wariness of soldier casualties and this influences the military tempo. This is not an existential war for Israel.
There is also an unknown exit strategy to the war. Israel may want Hamas to stay in power, seeing what other, worse alternatives are out there. But Hamas is bad enough - you can not negotiate with them; see Haled Mashal's latest speech on this from Quatar. They are on a mission from Allah and no civilian casualties or destruction of homes will deter them. You can not make peace with them, like Jordan or Egypt. Even the Arab states like Egypt or Saudi would like to see Hamas disappear. Wait for the Security Council enforcing ceasefire and the next chapter of the war in a year or two. Peace, Brother.....
Nobody expects Hamas to win. Hamas doesn't expect to win.
ReplyDeleteAll a weak, but dangerous organization like Hamas needs to do is survive and they will call it victory.
A nation with the military prowess of Israel can kick the shit out of Hamas all they want, but as long as enough of Hamas survives, they will take a victory lap.
That is the insidious thing about fighting terrorist organizations, they aren't there to win decisive battles, they exist there to damage and demoralize their enemy while they survive. As long as they survive and can hurt their enemy, then they succeed.
Fallujah is a bad example because the Marines there weren't operating the way the Army would operate in a combined arms team. Infantry in the lead to make contact, Armor in support to crush the enemy in contact with the Infantry. Artillery in support to drop everything from HT to smoke pots. You go in with enough men to take a city a block at a time, and you move deliberately, advancing and flanking as necessary.
ReplyDeleteYes people will die, but the Soviet model of Armor in the lead (or WWII German model), is not a good model for modern urban warfare. The only reason that the "Thunder Run" through Badhdad worked is that they stayed on main highways and open areas where the Abrams and Bradleys could maintain tactical advantage and some semblance of situational awareness.
purposeful murderers aren't known to confess they killed on purpose, so claiming human shield is expected of Israel, unless Hamas confirms the claim or a none related 3rd party confirms, its just Israel army killing civilians as it always has.
ReplyDeleteeither way Israel is trying to besiege them to death, its only giving them a choice of slow or fast death, what happened next is expected.
cities have always favored their defenders, and what makes matters worse is we are in an era where anti tank weapons are being developed faster than Armour development can counter, tactics may reduce the superior anti tank effect but not overcome it.
Let me get this straight: Hamas leaders on public TV saying that the human shield tactics work, or Israeli film footage taken from the air of human shield tactics doesn't mean anything? The Israelis are purposeful murderers? As always? You don't know sh*t. Maybe you should spend some time getting hard information before you spout off.
ReplyDeleteIsrael is trying to besiege them to death? You mean the same Israel that left an entire economic infrastructure for the Arabs when they forcibly removed Israeli farmers and businessmen and their families from there? The same Israel that supplies electricity, even though Hamas hasn't paid the bill? The same Israel that regularly treats Gazan Arabs in her hospitals? The same Israel that allowed truckloads of cement through its crossing, only to see it used to build terrorist tunnels? According to UN data (who usually don't say much favorable about Israel), from June 2007 to August 2013 Israel allowed through the crossings 69,810 truckloads of construction materials (cement, iron, etc.). That's besieging people to death? I say you're full of it.
Israel has acted with much more restraint than is either tactically or strategically advisable in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThe soft approach only works in a COIN environment where you have an actual chance of winning the hearts and minds of the populace. Yes women and children are dying now, but there is no way to kill only the bad guys in war.
Personally I think that Israel would have been better off buying long endurance drones with hellfire capability. Instead of trying to live under the Iron Dome that launches missiles into the sky, create a "Sky Fire" net which rains missiles down, guided by camera, onto the enemy.