DONETSK, July 30. /ITAR-TASS/. Separatist militias in fighting with Ukrainian government troops near the city of Shakhtyorsk in the country’s east have put out of action 125 armored vehicles of the Ukrainian army, said Deputy Defense Minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) Fyodor Berezin.If this is true then DAMN!
“The enemy has lost a total of 125 armored vehicles in Shakhtyorsk yesterday, including tanks, infantry combat vehicles, armored personnel carriers,” the DPR official was quoted by the Novorossia news agency.
Representatives of the Ukrainian armed forces have not commented on these reports so far.
I need the real story and less spin on events in Ukraine. Something is brewing because we're seeing new sanctions by the US and EU....if the Ukraine govt forces were winning then I would think that it wouldn't matter if Russia was increasing aid to the rebels.
I think we'll see clarification and the real story on the results of recent fighting soon.
i don't get it...are they storming rebels (which probably have more AT/AA weapons than bullets) with armored vehicles and expect to clean that place?...
ReplyDeleteIt's the same as using tanks in Afghanistan..
As a oppinion, wouldn't infantry on foot supported by artilery do better in this situation?
This is where Afghanistan tours come in handy
It's nothing new that Ukraine's military is performing very poorly, with terrible tactics and awful preparation. Chances are the top brass is being pushed into an all out assault in hopes of a single strike followed by decisive victory for political gain, with little knowledge of the actual chances of victory. In fact, given the amount of propaganda of overwhelming victory and success (which is later shown to be false, or at least not so factual) spewed by the current government, that actually sounds more and more likely.
Deleteyeah right, but somehow that poorly performed army is surrounding Donetsk. C'mon, use your common sense, this is not World War 2. How on earth they could destroy 1 tank division in just 1 single day. Its a LIE from Russian propaganda machine yet again.
DeleteI am with Mili-Tec. Go look at Euromadenpress it is a pretty good site (they are from the gov persepective so remember some bias applies) they have a "anti terrorist operation daily" that has maps details of battles with location names ect.. Found it from CDR salamander.
DeleteYou read that site read the rebel propaganda and you realize the rebels are losing and near defeat. They have been enveloped around Donensk with all the supply lines cut. Luhansk is near encirclement with fighting all around the suburbs. Go to the history and you can see were after the gov forces enveloped Donensk by capturing a string of cities straddling the roads Russia started hammering the Ukrainian forces holding the strip blocking Russian supply lines from the S, SE to Donensk.
The rebels are taking a beating their leaders have abandoned ship in their proclaimed capitol of Donesnk. Their people and soldiers need a boost and so you get exasgeration of battle reports to hide the loses. But even so go google map Shakhtyorsk and it confirms that the gov forces have enveloped Donensk cutting its supply lines. So even if we assume this true the rebels are cut off unless the rebels can drive the gov forces out of the central pincers reopening the road east.
If Russia doesn't intervene I think the gov forces will choke out the rebels in the next 30-60 days. The gov is closing off the rebels supply lines to Russia and as those lines go so goes this Russian built operation.
I just don't understand how suddenly they improved a lot in such short time.
ReplyDeleteA few weeks ago they got beat up from UK loyalists and retreated to Donestk. Now they changed the game and are beating the loyalists...
They had barely any equipment in the start, and definetely not as many people in their side. Completely different scenario now: Rebels getting more equipment and menpower while Ukraine loses more and more.
DeleteAnyone knows how much armor has been reportedly lost by Ukraine in this conflict? I remember reading somewhere they had about 2700 armored vehicles (tanks, APC, etc.), and so far lost 500 of them in total, but I can't find that link again or any other source.
ReplyDeleteDon't believe russian media and the rebels
ReplyDeleteRussian Army in 1995 lost one week in Grozny 300 units of armored vehicles.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's a fight in the city, without infantry support.
This news about 125 Ukrainian armored vehicles is a lie
According to rumors - ukrainian infantry is very bad, so heavy armor losses to be expected(and are taking place).
DeleteBut 125 is bullsh1t indeed.
Photos or never happened.
I trust TASS about as far as I can throw them.
ReplyDeleteSolomon, I suggest you take anything coming from russian propaganda agencies with a grain of salt - they just blindly quote what the 'rebels' are saying. Now, the fact of the matter is, if you look at the actual map (please note that the rebels are taking less than 20 percent of both Donetsk and Lugansk regions, and that those regions are a very small portion of Ukraine itself), http://mediarnbo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/KARTA-ATO-29.07-eng.jpg - they were reduced significantly by the Ukrainian advances on multiple fronts (note the striped area). Ukrainians have been at war since April - so they have plenty of experience by now, plenty of resources, and if they manage to seal the border with Putlerland properly, it's a matter of a few weeks before the terrorists get annihilated.
ReplyDeleteyou do know you just linked to the Ukrainian govt graphic and that they too can be accused of propaganda.
DeleteUkraine has plenty of it's own propaganda floating around, that much is true - but they don't tend to fake maps. I have a couple of friends from those areas, and they seem to confirm the general layout at least.
DeleteSolomon yes that is a gov map and yes I am sure the gov has a bias like the other sides.
DeleteBUT if you assume the same about the rebel reports then consider that it is so bad for the rebels that they are having confirm the gov map, Shakhtyorsk ukraine is west of the gov forces pincer close. The gov forces closed the pincers east of shakhtyorsk along the highway so the rebels by their own words have been enveloped around Donensk in a pocket without any supply lines without gov forces blocking to some extent. All they have to keep moral from collapsing is to blow up enemy reported losses (something that always should be taken with a grain of salt regardless source unless it comes from the one who took the losses). That is a sorry state of affairs for the rebels.
If Russia doesn't intervene directly with ground forces reopening the supply lines I think the gov forces will choke out the rebels in the next 30-60 days.
Side note even if the gov forces lost that many vehicles the missions goals were achieved and the rebels have been put in a bad position. Unless they can mount a attack down the highway clearing as they go through the next few cities their lines are cut and the clock is ticking. Fuel ammo etc... is bleeding off quickly and the rebels have no organic replenishment or built up massive weapons stockpiles like the gov forces have.
The rebels claim more and more unbelievable enemy loses but the locations of battles continue to show the gov forces are gaining ground winning it pushing to new deeper ground and achieving their goals pointing to ultimate victory.
C-Low, you can achieve victory at the cost of huge losses. These numbers could be high now because they are pushing with everything they got, or they could be propaganda. The truth is probably in between.
DeleteIt's like you said: " the gov forces lost that many vehicles the missions goals were achieved and the rebels have been put in a bad position." I am not saying they will win, but they appear to be bent on causing as much damage as possible before their defeat.
What a bunch of Litterbugs those soldiers are.
ReplyDeleteUsually when 125 "Armored Vehicles" move.....its Brigade Strength and upwards. Are the rebels now capable of not only halting but destroying Brigade/Division level formations.......apart from shooting down airliners and 30000 feet ?
ReplyDelete125 vehicles also dont move without air cover no matter how bad the military is. There is always some aerial asset providing cover and situational awareness. No mention of such aerial assets being destroyed or being targeted here.
125...in one day. Right.
ReplyDeleteSoooo Russians put a shame on the fighters from battle of 73 Easting that in day of fighting against regular units were able to destroy the same number of armored vehicles.
I call this a bullshit! Soviet propaganda main law is exaggerate everything to the level of absurd. Why not 500! or 1000! Both side of conflict Russia and Ukraine use the same methods, well they walk to the same school of idiotic propaganda of Lenin.
Rebels have lot of AT weapons, and arttillery support from both rebels and russia.
ReplyDeleteUk loyalist don't have air superiority.
If Uk are fool enough to send 125 armored in front, they could lose them all.
By the way I ve doubt on the numbers : perhaps a little inflated over reality !
Russia cannot provide artillery support to Shakhtyorsk. They are shelling the gov forces that have closed the southern envelopment of Donensk and the Eastern envelopment of Luhansk, ALONG THE BORDER blocking the roads. The gov forces are holding there but have been under bombardment taking losses.
DeleteFrom what I have seen and read the Ukrainian forces shy away from combat if they can as do the separatists! Most contacts seem to come about when they can't be avoided or when one side has an overwhelming concentration and they can scare the other team away. That isn't to say these guys are cowards more that this war appears to be going on in its own little bubble with the civilian population as an audience pumped up by extremists on both sides. I wouldn't be surprised to find German or Polish SF on the ground.
ReplyDeleteDon't forget about those CIA operatives and mercenaries. Soem idiotic info about Polish mercenaries were already in the air month ago. But just like Sol' I have still good contact with some of my friends still in Army and they all seat on their asses. First Special Commando regiment is under a little higher reediness level but still in garrison. Boys from GROM also are in country, core of Nil and AGAT units also train in Poland. Some of regular army units prepare for Black Eagle maneuvers with British.
DeleteI don't know about Germans but Polish SF are in country and that I know for sure.
Yep Sol said his side were still on the benches. Easier to hide Poles amongst other central Europeans.
DeleteIt just seems odd how the Ukrainians, both sides, seem to swing between being totally incompetent to steely dealers of death. The obvious answer is that somebody is doing the work. As you know and I know but perhaps saying for others is that mercenaries/advisors often don't do the fighting but are more like consultants at the forward edge of battle coaching their employee's forces. Polish forces trained to NATO standards plugged into US intel apparatus guiding government forces explains the sudden wins. And probably the Russians are doing the same. Interesting stuff.
With that "hide" thing, well... we don't share similar language with anyone in Central Europe, we have slightly similar words with Czech language but with different meaning. Then if someone is talking in Polish you just can't mistake it with any other language. Also the culture is very different, Poland is a bastion of Roman Catholics (With is very bad for country, large number of absolutely crazy religious fanatics and paying for Church from gov. taxes including every year a large tribute for Vatican) that also create large differences.
DeleteYou can try to hide Russian inside Ukrainians as for foreigner those language and culture are extremely similar. With funny thing that even you think they speak the same language it's very different and Russian don't have a fraking idea what Ukrainian said and vice versa.
Maybe some advisers, maybe civilian ones. Ex-military... but boys from SF are in home. They were in Chad and Afghanistan, some in... different places. But after Russia invade Crimea they got a call home to be ready in home, just in case.
Obviously language will reveal all. But amongst a mix of faces who would blend in more to a central European mix, a bunch of Americans or a bunch of Poles (or Germans)?
DeleteWell true, they would blend better. Maybe not Germans, they are specific.
DeleteThat's remind me some old communist joke. Yanks send a master spy to Russia, he speak perfect Russian, know everything about culture, maps, food... just everything. When he land in Russia first person he meet welcome him with words "Good morning american spy" the same next couple of persons say to him... finally he stop one of peasants and ask why he think that he is american spy? Russian say that he indeed speak perfect Russian and all but... there are no black people in Motherland. :D
Shas: LOL Recall that movie where one of the German soldier infiltrators was black?
DeleteThe commando's covered him up with bandages and said, "Oh he was burned" an eagles dare movie I think.
Relax. The so called rebels were talking about "armoured vehicles". My be an APC is any car with one brick stone inside or a driver wearing sun glasses as protection...
ReplyDeleteThat seems much more likely.
DeleteAgree, in world war two to the American infantryman every German armored vehicle was a Tiger facts show with production rates though very few Tigers existed and they usually were M killed by mechanical reasons, most German tanks were Panzer IV and STuG's.
Deleteit's bullshitest shit. If that were true I would find it at least in some unreliable sources of the rebels but I wouldn't at all. I specially looked at rebels' pages in social websites and I have found nothing about some heavy losses of the ukranian side during the last days.
ReplyDeleteK-Kill?
ReplyDeleteMission kill?
Breakdown?
I wouldnt be surprised to hear that during a major Ukraine Army move 125 vehicles broke down.
Add in Mission kills from materiel rifles popping tracks and proper ATGM and its very believable. ESPECIALLY if were counting anything 20t and up
Remember the further the Ukraine advances the more time the Donetsk Forces have had to dig in and the more determined they will be to hold out. Dug in infantry can happily ambush armour and retreat to a new position all day.
As for "encircled", this isnt a field army on the march, its a militia defending its home city.
What are you cutting them off from? They dont rely on daily truck loads of fuel and MREs from Russia, sure, they need ammunition, spare parts and the like, but they are likely stockpiled already.
Hell, unless they plan on besieging the city and starving the populace out, they cant stop food and fuel going in.
Cutting off Fallujah was easy.
But taking the city required two attempts, 14,000 troops and 600 casualties.
And the attackers in that case were mostly US and UK, and fighting units at that.
The defenders were who half trained no ones.
Dontesk is going to be attacked by forces much weaker than assailed Fallujah, and defended by much better forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_%281994%E2%80%931995%29
If Hamas can cause the IDF such trouble, what in holy f**k do you think the supposedly russian special forces trained DPR can do to Ukraine!
The Kosovo war saw American strike aircraft destroying many vehicles, claimed and witnessed only to discover at the end the vehicles were decoys and rubber tanks.
ReplyDeleteTo say they shot at and hit 125 targets is correct maybe but those targets could have been inflatable tanks.
An M-1 tank decoy cost $3,300.00 and comes with an inflation device and a heat signature emitter.
Many Tanks carry one inflatable decoy on their missions.
SEE wikipedia dummy tank
The propaganda of absurd is strong in Russia and most post-Soviet republics. You would think looking at history that they like the most fantastic thing to put in to news. In last days I even read how Ukrainians were responsible for massacres in times of Warsaw Uprising (70th anniversary in this year) and they serve under Andrey Andreyevich Vlasov in Russian Liberation Army. The author was even saying that there were no Russians in RLA but only Ukrainians and it's a big "western" lie that any Russians serve alongside Nazis.
ReplyDeleteClassic, just soviet classic in modern edition.
I think its about Saur-mogila battle.
ReplyDeletecasualities is unreal I think. But ukrainians used about 260 armoured vehicles in this battle its a fact