Thanks for the link Dwi...
via ITASS-TASS
This war has headed into a propaganda/spin/lie phase.
Who knows what the actual truth is?
via ITASS-TASS
ROSTOV-ON-DON, August 04. /ITAR-TASS/. More than 400 Ukrainian military have crossed into Russia overnight to Monday asking for asylum, spokesman for the Russian Border Department for the Rostov Region Vassily Malayev told ITAR-TASS on Monday.Can you hide the fact that almost a Battalion of men deserted? Can you spin it?
“At night, 438 Ukrainian military asked Russian border guards for asylum. Upon the decision of the Russian Border Service, the regional border department opened a humanitarian corridor letting those asking for asylum into Russia,” Malayev said, adding that there were 164 Ukrainian border guards among them.
This war has headed into a propaganda/spin/lie phase.
Who knows what the actual truth is?
Hmmm... where is the proof? Because the old soviet propaganda trick that is still on the roll those days are to put some absurd and shocking news, something solid and heavy. Of course without any proof, just to scream some news. How many pic's of Russian gov. media ware false, the woman protecting a child with own body against Ukrainian shelling was an pic of Israel woman protecting own child from Hamas rocket strike. Vid's an pics of "war in "Ukraine" were indeed pic's and vid's from war in Georgia. Pic of busy border crossing showing how Ukrainians run to Russia... was indeed a border crossing but between Ukraine and Poland (they were not even smart enough to photoshop or cover crossing name, Shegyni-Medyka)... soo, yeah I'm anti Russian and anyone can say that I'm bias but I don't believe in ANYTHING from Russia media.
ReplyDeleteThis is the syndrome of as i said one time the "boy that always lie", even if he say the truth everyone would think he lie again... because he always did in the past.
So, where are the proof? This is XX century, vid's with that deserters, identification of them, military mobilization books with them with unit number. But... there will be none I suppose. Just another "shocking" news like Ukraine are all Nazi and use chemical weapons, crucifies child's and cannibalize people.
You could say the same for just about everything you hear from western media(who by the way have little or no reporters on the ground most stay in Kiev and are feed info there so their reports are more or less 'garbage in garbage out' ) ,where is the proof Russia in supplying rebels with arms. (reason for seanctions)
DeleteIn any case i am not saying above news in 100% true but ,elements of Ukraines 72nd,79nd Motorized Brigade and 24th Airborne have been cut off from supplys and surrounded by rebels for almost 2 weeks now and they are between a rock and a hard place (rebels on 3 sides and russian border to their back) so unless rebels for any reason break of the siege these guys don't stand a chance so wouldn't bet my money against their desertion over the border.
http://kot-ivanov.livejournal.com/
So, where are the proof?This is XX century, vid's with that deserters, identification of them, military mobilization books with them with unit number
DeleteMay be you need urine analysis of each deserted ukro-military? ))) Have you any example in world practice – if this info is published suddenly in such situation? I guess – no. By-the-way these military are not prisoners. Some of them reportedly left Russian territory by now.
An insider who is close to rebels said it was retreat on Russian territory more then four hundred of Ukrainian military. More of this – they left their materiel and weapon to rebels according to rebels-military-Russians unilateral hidden agreement.
Soon it should be the next part of deserters – rebels hit ukro-military with some casualties of the last – to motivate ukro-military retreat and leave their equipment to rebels. I trust the insider.
There's "propaganda" in every conflict, so shouldn't surprise anybody the Russians are trying to spin this media war their way while Kiev and the West is doing the same, in opposite direction.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the credibility of the info, hard to say, but i wouldnt disregard it right away. There were lots of ethnic Russians (or people leaning towards Russia) in the ukrainian security forces. About 50 % even according to some studies. That is also the reason the National Guard was formed, because the regular forces would not have carried out orders that came from Kiev.
let's just wait and see, but i wouldnt be surprised if this turned out to be true, or partly true.
So true ,lots of officer cadre in former soviet republics is only a step away from serving their old master.That is why these former republics fair so poor against their former 'comrades' ,FSB is always in the loop.
DeleteNot in everyone former republic, but true in most of them the pro-Russian factions were strong. The Ukraine was an unique as they had very strong bonds with Russia even after the fall of Soviet Union. In first months of conflict it was clear as sun in the middle of day. Now, it's a little better... hate for the new enemy is rather strong fuel. But as history teach us... Russians are not too good in making friends, but they are masters in making enemy's.
DeleteWell, I only can tell you the statements from the ukrainian side. These people are from the 72nd mechanized brigade , they fighted near the russian-ukrainian border surrounded by enemies for four hours. When they almost ran out of ammo and didn't wait for help their commander took a decision to split. One part of the troops broke out of the encirclement while other one covered them by fire then last surrounded soldiers crossed the russian border. They haven't capitulated or deserted to the enemy's side as was spoken by some russian media. An asylum is so crafty word in the article.
ReplyDeleteP.S. Right now a mopping up operation of Donetsk began.
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Deleteisn't that the 9th or 10th operation of that kind in the area ? 'mopping up' is a interesting term you're using, sounds more like wishful thinking ... I mean when even the Kiev government is acknowledging that part of a mechanized brigade has been 'surrounded' and basically had to split up to break the encirclement, well then things are definitely going sideways in that brigade and that army ... Fair play to them if they didn't surrender, but being cornered and forced to give up to a rag tag army speaks volumes ... Ukrainian forces resemble more and more a Mexican army, which they probably always have been, and I'm not talking about Santana at the Alamo ... Time to call in the Federales ! But wait, hey, there is no cavalry to call in ... Gonna have to mop up your mess at the negociation table, one more mopping operation like this and there won't be much left to do the mopping !
DeleteIts not just 72nd Mechanized ,but also 79th Mechanized and 24th airborne brigades that have been cut off for quite some time now surrounded by rebels and with their back to russian border .Thil things got out of hand Kiev claimed they were surrounding the rebels but it turned out to be other way around. They probably didn't defect like Russians are spining it but ,crossed the border to save their skin where they were 'interned' by Russians and will be/are sent back to Ukraine . So far we can trust the reports 72nd was mauled by Grad fire and not engaged in any close combat
DeleteNo, just look at the map of the counter terrorism operation and you will understand that the ukrainian forces stand near the city of Donetsk. Now they have possibilities to enter the city and they did. As for the Ukrainian army I said it plenty of times and I say it again, the army is in very poor conditions, over than 20 years it was deteriorating. Their army is weak now but it really can't be compared to the Mexican one, because it has much more potential.
DeleteMr.T, I have read that only guys from the 72nd brigade went over the border.
DeleteAs 79th and 24th are in the same pocket expect them to be next.
DeleteWhose map would that be 1Modeus? Ukraine's or the Separatists'?
DeleteInteresting story. Wish we really knew the truth of the situation.
SandWyrm, there is an ukraine military site (http://mediarnbo.org/?cat=33 ) where is such a map which is updated almost every day. The site is in ukrainian language but you can just click on the map picture to open it. About entering Donetsk, now there is more exactly information that the government forces didn't enter the city they have entered only into Marinka (Donetsk's suburb), but some media wrote the forces was already entering into the city of Donetsk. From my observation that's a well exact map at least I have never seen lie or serious errors on it
DeleteThat site is down, though I'd have a hard time trusting it anyhow.
DeleteOk we have an info that those soldiers indeed cross Russian border but not deserted but try to break thru encirclement after they run out the ammo. Now we will see what happens next, they will be imprisonment and used by Kreml propaganda machine as that woman officer that was kidnapped by Russians... or they will be, well this is unknown.
ReplyDeleteSome of units break the encirclement as other cover them with rest of ammo and after that they retreat thru Russian border. Russians inform that they will move those soldiers to the nearest safe border crossing and they will return to Ukraine.
DeleteThis is the more or less what Ukrainians and Russians said. Now... if Russians said that they deserted, why they inform that they will move those men to the border crossing that they can return to Ukraine.
There was no rearguard action or an organized retreat , as far as parents of the kids serving with these units told the reporters, units never saw the enemy ,they were bombarded and left without supplies ,no 'glorious' combat took place so no heroic stories of fighting to the last bullet, that is Kiev spin.
Deletehttp://kiev1.org/en/rasstrel-ukrainskih-voennyh.html
thx for the update, haven't had time to check in on that story ... But this Ukrainian outfit has Mexican Army written all over it !
DeleteIn the early days of the conflict there were reports and videos of Kiev troops not fighting when ordered and giving up their arms (well firing pins of their rifles and breach blocks of their cannon.) I don't think the Kiev troops have much of an appetite for a war. That isn't to say they are cowards more that there is a lack of clarity of the aims. I think most fire fights have been by accident or not entirely fought by Ukrainians from either side (hint, hint). The politicians are saying one thing safe in their capital buildings and life on the ground is another matter. I don't think everybody in the breakway regions wants to be Russian, but I think it is a sizeable majority. The people and soldiers have been lead a merry dance by those who want power but don't want to concern themselves with the tawdry wishes of the people they supposedly lead. Saying that I bet Putin is more representative than anybody on our side.
ReplyDeleteDon't remind me that vid where they give up firing pin's... the shame on the faces, one even had tears in eyes. That was the most fuck up and traumatic situation soldier can be.
DeleteI just think there are trouble makers on the ground on both sides. I think our leaders here in the West are trying to stoke something up, with money and advisor, but nobody here really cares. I think the Russians have made what they can out of the situation but really don't want to push it any further. But I think there are more Russians behind Putin supporting his decisions than there are Westerners supporting our governments' actions. That isn't to I agree or disagree with their side more that I can just understand why and what they are doing. Western leaders can't seem to grasp that to a large number of Russians Putin is a hero; perhaps they are jealous who knows? The only time the Ukraine has been mentioned to me in conversation is somebody hoping that they don't come here.
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