Major thanks to Jonathan for the link.
via Defense Aerospace.
via Defense Aerospace.
The Polish Defence ministry has said that it is considering bids from 10 manufacturers of modern combat-ready helicopters, in an accelerated procedure after the outbreak of civil war in eastern Ukraine.I've always been a fan of the AW129 and wondered why it doesn't get more orders. Having said that they will buy AH-64Es...no amount of European bribery will change that.
Although not naming the companies, the Defence ministry has said in a statement that the bidding process involves “foreign and domestic companies offering both ready-made helicopters and components for assembly”.
The ministry's 'Operation Raven' is aimed at replacing Poland's ageing Mi-24 fleet of helicopters.
American-made Apache AH-64E aircraft, the European Eurocopter / Airbus Tiger helicopter or the British-Italian Agusta AW129 Mongoose are thought to be among the top runners in the bidding process.
Good for them, regardless of choice, unlike OTHERS.......
ReplyDeleteThey probably will go for theApache for political reasons but once they see the final price on the proposal they wont smile. I mean the AH-64E cost almost like a Gripen C.
ReplyDeleteThe Tiger is also too expensive for what it delivers, i mean an AH-1Z packs double the punch, and look at the Tigers engines how close they are spaced together one MANDPADS hit and its gone.
The A-129 does not have that much political support however.
An interesting thing would be if they go for a version of the Battlehawk because they already manifacture the Blackhawk.
wow! hadn't even considered the Poles going with the BattleHawk. ya nkkow it would fit right into how they currently operate the MI-24's. they wouldn't lose that much when it comes to firepower either.
Deleteif price is a consideration and the Poles seem to be practical AND frugal then the BlackHawk is probably the front runner.
Oh there is couple of mistakes in that article, some bigger some less.
ReplyDelete- It's not an 'Operation Raven' but just program "Raven". Codename for program that will end with buying of attack helos for Polish Army Aviation.
- It was not accelerated because Ukraine crisis and Russian invasion of Crimea. It was not accelerated at all, everything is according to schedule of large helos buys for Army Aviation. It's just coincidence, but indeed there is a pressure to speed up the analytic-concept phase.
- The full list of manufactures should include also Bell AH-1Z Viper (that is by mistake called still Cobra) and...but this is not for 100% but about 90% sure... TAI T129 ATAK.
Now as Storm Shadow notice, it will be a political decision...as always, the damned lesson of F-16. But this time the Polish politicians will have a little more problems, in what ass they want to enter with smile more? The European ass with Tiger and Mangusta&T129 or the US ass with Apache and Viper.
Only Mangusta&T129 are not battle proven, we all know glorious and full of action history of Apache and AH-1. Tiger is also more or less proven by actions in Africa and Afghanistan. But also remember there are TWO versions of Tiger, the more heavy armed French one and less armed(!) German one.
Now to the BattleHawk, that idea indeed resurface some time ago. But it was in case of transport/multirole helo buying program that is also at full speed for Army Aviation. With main players are S-70i that is of course proven platform and it's manufactured IN POLAND. The AgustaWestland AW149 that is new machine and also manufactured IN POLAND and at the end Eurocopter EC725, not manufactured in Poland.
I underline "IN POLAND" and probably you all understand why only S-70i and AW149 are for real players in that program.
Now the BattleHawk is only transport helo that want to be attack one. It can't replace Mi-24... because the only Mi-24 can replace it. Or as one of pilots said to me the Mi-24 MKIII, they love old "crocodiles" and nothing on the world can replace them on pair.
To the meritum, if S-70i win the multirole helo program then maybe, MAYBE we will see buying some modification packs for BattleHawk. But this will not eliminate the true attack helo from buying roster.
Now if AugustaWestland will be smart they will offer a very good pack that will give Polish Aviation not only AW149 but also Mangusta. European company that have plant in Poland and can give modern and advance helos.
But... but...but... I would put my money of US ass.
Mi-24 is indeed a great bird and Battle hawk couldn't replace it. Interestingly when Hind appeared it was bashed as being a bad compromise between attack and transport hello but so far pilots(i know a couple) and operators love it ,The Mi28 that was supposed to replace it has hard time getting contracts over upgraded Mi-35
ReplyDeleteIndeed, as time show it was an excellent compromise. It's hard to replace something that don't have ANY similar construction on the world. It has - and + like everything and Polish pilots would like to fly them longer. But platforms are worn out already, you can repair it only an limited number of times before structural damage is too big. And of course the replace them with new ones are for political reasons impossible.
DeleteAs long as you do not mind cutting off the tail boom when you are maneuvering. Read up on it some more, this is more Huey gunship then AH-1 or 64 knife fighter.
DeleteOne thing to remember about the AW129 is it is closer in size to the AH-1J. It is actually slower in dash and cruise speed. It has about the same range. Like the AH-1J it is about 55% the size of the AH-1Z, less range and even slower speed.
ReplyDeleteThe TAI licensed production version expected to cost $150 mil each. That includes the setup of the factory, overhaul, and training.
The new built AH-1Z are around $32 million each, I suspect it will not cost an extra $118 million each to setup the same facilities in Poland. They already have support setup for the GE T700's saving even more money. The UK AH-65D's cost about $59 million each based on the program cost. They changed out the powertrain to Anglicize the Apache. The program still cost less the the TAI 129's, most of that is volume related. Italy bought 60 A129's. The AH-64's is over 2000 air frames, the AH-1W/Z are in the hundreds. These larger programs have a much better assembly line history, where the A129 are treated almost like a custom builds due to the extremely low production rate.
Well there is already AugustaWestland plant in Poland, so the costs of maintenance and tech transfer will be a loot smaller then Apache or AH-1Z. If they merge them with additional bonus of multirole helo program it can also lower the overall costs.
DeleteWe need to also think about some small stuff like Polish military definitely prefer "wheels" in helos. Small thing but can give an - to AH-1Z. Also we can look at military applications but as you very good notice the cost will be major factor. And of course... the politicians point of view that is on the level on 1 day old plankton.
What plant in Poland? They have a sales office in Warsaw.
Deletehttp://www.agustawestland.com/map_aw_location
Per the them they have 1 plant each in the US, UK, and several in Italy.
AgustaWestland own PZL Ĺwidnik S.A. where they manufacture AW109 fuselage. Also as part of multirole deal they offer open a full production and maintenance of AW149.
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