Guys, this scheme is not up to date. Check this link for further information on the Brazilian Army's new rifle. (Unfortunately the article is in portuguese)
MSBS program is fully design in famous "Łucznik" Arms Factory in Radom that exist from 1927. It was established by gov. order to design and produce arms for Polish Army. Ceska Zbrojovka firearms branch was founded in 1916/17 so both company's have similar long history as weapons manufacturers.
Both classic and bullpup models ( that will have some 11 variants ) are ready to go full production this year. The only thing that hold this up are legislatures and law stuff problems with waiting for full order from Ministry of Defense. For now, besides models that are used for factory testing and field tests by various Polish Army units there is an small batch that is prepare for Armed Forces Representative Company with wooden butt and extra details.
There are plans for putting them also on civilian market without ability to burst shooting, but still chambered for standard 5,56 × 45 mm round. So if you want in the future you will be able to get one, good armsmith will not have too much problems with revers it to full auto.
As a part of Future Combat they are design to be integral part of Polish TYTAN program that is in testing phase and some of packs are entering testing time in combat units.
BTW: you would believe that MSBS first "proof of working" model look like that: http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/REMOV/Inne/_MSBS-556_03.jpg ? That was in 2009.
Well, its good to know that not only indigenous but also former Soviet era "Talent" and "Resources" are not being wasted and are being well utilized by atleast the Polish and Czechs. My father had the opportunity to visit the Czech republic and try out the CZ guns and he was very very impressed. Though the thing that impressed him the most was the independant wheel drive system of the Tatra Tank Transporter/Heavy mobility vehicles.
I wonder if they are still fitting the T-55 engine derivative as powerpack into the Tatra or they have a new one ?
It's major step to throw out that ex-Soviet bloc weapons design heritage. As you notice most of that rifles were/are based on Mikhail Kalashnikov design, it's very good design but also carry with it the symbol of Soviet occupation. Polish Army posses large stockpiles of AK systems rifles, many of them are in terrible shape, old and used to many times. To replace them in frontline service the Polish manufacturers put in to production the updated AK designs, Kbk wz. 1988 "Tantal" and Kbs wz. 1996 "Beryl", both from Radom.
But with new times, Army need new weapons. Something that will be not just AK with different paint but truly new one. And the MSBS are just this type of weapons.
The new Tatra trucks use Renault engine, the older ones a rather large different types and manufacturers.
Renault engines in Soviet era trucks............see, this is the kind of French-Eastern Bloc colaboration that makes me happy. I know the world is pissed at France at the continuation of the Mistral Deal but that Mistral deal is only the tip of the Iceberg. You want a full picture of Franco-Russian collaboration, you come to Indian Shores. I bet you we wont be flying around those PAKFA's with Russian software and avionics. Dassualt have not only won the Rafale contract but have in reality paved the way for Thales, Sagem, Dassult etc for future tech, collaboration on old and new Russian gear. Israel will also feature prominantly in the Indian version of PAKFA.
Ceska Zobrojovka is one of the official entrants in the Indian Army Carbine Replacement program. Along with IWI Galil derivative ACE and Colt M4. There is a very strong lobby of Pro-IWI/IMI officers and bureacrats in India though.
Funny to note that it was i think the earstwhile Czeckoslovakia that supplied a lot of arms to Israel during the early days and now both are competitiors in the Carbine competition and the upcomming Rifle Replacement competition as well. As a person who has only handled INSAS and those Bulgarian AK's, i have no idea how these weapons fire and handle on a regular basis.
I had the pleasure of holding Galil, it's rather similar with overall experience with the AK series of weapons. I never meet INSAS but I think it is similar to Galil. With all those different weapon programs in India, I'm surprised that they did not try to create own native design for replacement program.
I for one am glad they did not go with an Indian Design. Indian Weapons Bureaus have a lot of road to travel in their journey to Maturity and an even longer road to travel in Quality Control. Our best produced small arms came from Rifle Factory Ishapore, where we were licence producing FN Herstals and before that the Enfields and Bren MG's, Sten Carbines etc. The moment we went "Native" with the INSAS it was only a so-so weapon designed by a team of bureacrats more comfortable cracking elite entrance exams to Govt. Organizations rather than applied research or original thinking, Insulating army influence and design contributions at every step so that their "Turf" isnt messed around with.
I'd rather have foreign merchandise under a copyright protected liscence where I can make any number of guns by paying a decent royalty to the original owner of the technology. The royalty by the way is almost negligible in the cases of these small arms. Definatly less expensive than a full blown 10 Laboratory setup with 250 scientists and 1000 peons, drivers, tea boys and janitors doing nothing 24/7, 365.
Adding to my above rant.........when we got the FH-77 howitzers from the Swedes in the 80's, our Ordanance Factory Board also got full technlogy and blueprints for making the gun completly in India, including all components. Those plans were with us from the 1980's onwards and only got re-discovered in 2013 when the army has been crying out for Arty guns from 19080's onwards. No one in the OFB decided to look into his drawers or open up his computer and type in FH-77 and search. If this is Indigenization, I am going Foreign.
Guess I see where IMBEL got the inspiration for it's IA2 design now...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.forte.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Brazil-IA2.jpg
Indeed, there are similar. But I think both are more related to FN SCAR & ACR design philosophy.
DeleteGuys, this scheme is not up to date. Check this link for further information on the Brazilian Army's new rifle. (Unfortunately the article is in portuguese)
Deletehttp://www.forte.jor.br/2014/06/15/sistema-de-armas-imbel-a2/
Looking good... I feel the SG 550 vibe in that.
DeleteLooks like Ceska Zbrojovka have some competition here in Poland.
ReplyDeleteMSBS program is fully design in famous "Łucznik" Arms Factory in Radom that exist from 1927. It was established by gov. order to design and produce arms for Polish Army. Ceska Zbrojovka firearms branch was founded in 1916/17 so both company's have similar long history as weapons manufacturers.
DeleteBoth classic and bullpup models ( that will have some 11 variants ) are ready to go full production this year. The only thing that hold this up are legislatures and law stuff problems with waiting for full order from Ministry of Defense. For now, besides models that are used for factory testing and field tests by various Polish Army units there is an small batch that is prepare for Armed Forces Representative Company with wooden butt and extra details.
There are plans for putting them also on civilian market without ability to burst shooting, but still chambered for standard 5,56 × 45 mm round. So if you want in the future you will be able to get one, good armsmith will not have too much problems with revers it to full auto.
As a part of Future Combat they are design to be integral part of Polish TYTAN program that is in testing phase and some of packs are entering testing time in combat units.
BTW: you would believe that MSBS first "proof of working" model look like that: http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h90/REMOV/Inne/_MSBS-556_03.jpg ? That was in 2009.
Well, its good to know that not only indigenous but also former Soviet era "Talent" and "Resources" are not being wasted and are being well utilized by atleast the Polish and Czechs. My father had the opportunity to visit the Czech republic and try out the CZ guns and he was very very impressed. Though the thing that impressed him the most was the independant wheel drive system of the Tatra Tank Transporter/Heavy mobility vehicles.
DeleteI wonder if they are still fitting the T-55 engine derivative as powerpack into the Tatra or they have a new one ?
It's major step to throw out that ex-Soviet bloc weapons design heritage. As you notice most of that rifles were/are based on Mikhail Kalashnikov design, it's very good design but also carry with it the symbol of Soviet occupation. Polish Army posses large stockpiles of AK systems rifles, many of them are in terrible shape, old and used to many times. To replace them in frontline service the Polish manufacturers put in to production the updated AK designs, Kbk wz. 1988 "Tantal" and Kbs wz. 1996 "Beryl", both from Radom.
DeleteBut with new times, Army need new weapons. Something that will be not just AK with different paint but truly new one. And the MSBS are just this type of weapons.
The new Tatra trucks use Renault engine, the older ones a rather large different types and manufacturers.
Renault engines in Soviet era trucks............see, this is the kind of French-Eastern Bloc colaboration that makes me happy. I know the world is pissed at France at the continuation of the Mistral Deal but that Mistral deal is only the tip of the Iceberg. You want a full picture of Franco-Russian collaboration, you come to Indian Shores. I bet you we wont be flying around those PAKFA's with Russian software and avionics. Dassualt have not only won the Rafale contract but have in reality paved the way for Thales, Sagem, Dassult etc for future tech, collaboration on old and new Russian gear. Israel will also feature prominantly in the Indian version of PAKFA.
Delete@Shas
ReplyDeleteCeska Zobrojovka is one of the official entrants in the Indian Army Carbine Replacement program. Along with IWI Galil derivative ACE and Colt M4. There is a very strong lobby of Pro-IWI/IMI officers and bureacrats in India though.
Funny to note that it was i think the earstwhile Czeckoslovakia that supplied a lot of arms to Israel during the early days and now both are competitiors in the Carbine competition and the upcomming Rifle Replacement competition as well. As a person who has only handled INSAS and those Bulgarian AK's, i have no idea how these weapons fire and handle on a regular basis.
I had the pleasure of holding Galil, it's rather similar with overall experience with the AK series of weapons. I never meet INSAS but I think it is similar to Galil. With all those different weapon programs in India, I'm surprised that they did not try to create own native design for replacement program.
DeleteI for one am glad they did not go with an Indian Design. Indian Weapons Bureaus have a lot of road to travel in their journey to Maturity and an even longer road to travel in Quality Control. Our best produced small arms came from Rifle Factory Ishapore, where we were licence producing FN Herstals and before that the Enfields and Bren MG's, Sten Carbines etc. The moment we went "Native" with the INSAS it was only a so-so weapon designed by a team of bureacrats more comfortable cracking elite entrance exams to Govt. Organizations rather than applied research or original thinking, Insulating army influence and design contributions at every step so that their "Turf" isnt messed around with.
DeleteI'd rather have foreign merchandise under a copyright protected liscence where I can make any number of guns by paying a decent royalty to the original owner of the technology. The royalty by the way is almost negligible in the cases of these small arms. Definatly less expensive than a full blown 10 Laboratory setup with 250 scientists and 1000 peons, drivers, tea boys and janitors doing nothing 24/7, 365.
Adding to my above rant.........when we got the FH-77 howitzers from the Swedes in the 80's, our Ordanance Factory Board also got full technlogy and blueprints for making the gun completly in India, including all components. Those plans were with us from the 1980's onwards and only got re-discovered in 2013 when the army has been crying out for Arty guns from 19080's onwards. No one in the OFB decided to look into his drawers or open up his computer and type in FH-77 and search. If this is Indigenization, I am going Foreign.
DeleteYou forgot about the bribes that further stained the Indian Government. So not only were they incompetent, they were corrupt too!
Delete