Thanks to Andre for the link.
The paratrooper in the photo above has a 20,000 dollar bounty on his head. Want to know why? Go to this link and drink it in. Is it true? I have no idea. But if it is then shit is real in Ukraine and it won't be solved by negotiations...blood has been spilled and payback is a bitch.
The paratrooper in the photo above has a 20,000 dollar bounty on his head. Want to know why? Go to this link and drink it in. Is it true? I have no idea. But if it is then shit is real in Ukraine and it won't be solved by negotiations...blood has been spilled and payback is a bitch.
I didn't watch the videos, so this might be way off, but the text was hardly conclusive.
ReplyDeleteOne mans torture is another mans mercy
You've been at the sharp end,
Let's say you're on patrol, you get ambushed, your seven buddies get dead.
Would you consider it 'torture' to bury them personally? Or a mark of respect?
I'd think I was buying a nice guy letting you do it
The photos with dead bodies are distasteful, but don't appear to be any worse than we've seen from oef and oif.
Sure, if the patrol was taken alive, forced to fight to the death, with the winners eating the dead, that would be fucked up, but prisoners being injured and 'appearing dressed' is hardly damning.
the thing that had me pause isn't the bodies or the grave digging. the guy that was crying and then the next thing you see is whats suppose to be his dead body. how did he get dead? i don't know. was he murdered, caught in artillery fire? we don't know. but if he was a prisoner and then got done, then thats a big no no. thats drilled hard. if you take them prisoner then they're your responsibility.
DeletePersonally, If I had lost members of my unit to just regular combat it would be business as usual, if I found they had been Taken Prisoner, tortured, and brutally killed I would kill any of their soldiers who fell into my hands, coldly and with relish and Elan.
DeleteWhen I have to put down an animal I shoot it once in the head.
I don't dick around and play with it before hand nor after.
I would do the same for my enemies, I'd kill them fast and clean.
I don't torture or make people dig their own graves.
Agree with sol ... If you take prisoners, they're your responsility under Geneva conventions. That is if you take prisoners of course !
ReplyDeleteWell, they can always say that they fight for imaginary Donetsk People Republic and that "country" did not sign any Geneva Conventions.
Deletewell we're talking about the US code here. i'll never forget that briefing...and then the blowback when terrorists were all getting zapped with head shots and HQMC launched an investigation because they thought that they were being executed in the field. God bless ACOG!
DeleteThey could you're right but that's not how international law of war works ... Geneva conventions would be binding in any case if the captured fighters are recognizable as such by distinctive uniform for example even if not members of official army ... So donbass militias have to respect it and ukies as well ... On the other hand spies (wearing foreign uniform and carrying no or false ID) can be shot
DeleteDon't think there's anything wrong with headshot when terrorist is trying to reach for concealed weapon while pretending to let himself be taken prisoner ... ACOG just is the means to make sure he can't detonate anything he might be carrying under his thawb !
DeleteMilitias are not military, they don't have an organized uniform patter or even single type of unified national symbol on them. Some of them are wearing only an civilian clothing. They are not even an single organisation but loose group of different "warbands"
DeleteThen how they should be treated by Ukrainian military in according with Geneva conventions?
Just read the conventions, you'll get a straightforward answer to your question (Third Geneva Convention of 1949, in particular article 4.1.1 to 4.1.6).
DeleteHecate then we have the problems with following things:
DeleteArticle 4.1.2 Paragraph 2
- that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (On many vid's there are not even recognizable on short distance or don't exist at all)
- that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. (Now this is so highly unclear paragraph then we must first create some solid rules of war, and that's impossible. But if terrorists indeed killed POW's they behave against Convention...then they are still under protection of it?)
And if Ukraine had not declare state of war between them and terrorists, do the War in there exist in the light of international law?
Shas, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make ... I can just tell you what the basis for the code of conduct is in most armies that fight according to laws of war. And the laws of war is a very clear and defined concept, I'm sure your CO or battalion "ethics" officer can enlighten you before you start shooting at guys holding their hands in the air.
DeleteMy answer to you would be: the pro-russian militias can qualify for geneva conventions under several aspects, you mentioning art 4.1.2 because it suits you. Other people would argue they qualify under 4.1.6. Finally to cut this short, article 5 states the following "when there is any doubt whether a combatant belongs to the categories in article 4, they should be treated as such until their status has been determined by a competent tribunal". In other words, just because you're holding the gun, doesnt give you the right to be judge and jury. Stick to soldiering and fight a clean fight. Better for you as well, long term, so you can sleep at night !
Oh I just wonder how this look now. In "good" old Warsaw Pact military books you would shoot anyone who is not wearing military uniform as spy. Even soldiers were ordered to hand over every captured enemy soldiers to the hands of SB (Polish branch of KGB in that time) and under threat of prison do not ask questions what would happen to them. I would be almost sure that If I would been captured by in that time NATO main enemy of Warsaw Pact I would be probably treated in according of Conventions. I'm rather not that sure what would happen with the other side in hand's of Bezpieka.
DeleteThis mentality can still live in many ex-Soviet Republics and in Russia. Even as we saw in modern conflict, the Convention is too often dead law.
Shas:
DeleteIn good old Warsaw pact handbook, your own soldiers found lost and without their arms are shot also.
IF The situation had been different, you would receive different treatment.
In the assault phase of an attack on an enemy position, time, speed, safety and preservation of force says take no prisoners, shoot them in the body as you go by their positions. Assuming a hasty 180 you pursue by rifle, machine gun and supporting mortar/rocket fire any enemy soldiers you see, running away, standing still or lying down, armed or not, Mop up to a 360 would put what is called "Possum squads" in play, men designated to go around and find those still able, still armed and willing to fight playing dead or just hiding out and kill them.
The wounded who are helpless you collect for evac with your own wounded.
If the unit you are fighting surrenders in mass in too large a group to secure and if securing those EPW's will stop or delay your mission, you will kill them, quickly, cleanly and make sure they are dead.
In the Assault, with your own men wounded and killed, you are too short on man power to delegate men to watch EPW's. So to prevent mission kill or a battle lost you do what a man's gotta do and render them combat ineffective.
Legal?
Probably not.
Right?
definitely Not right.
In a situation where you have full control of the battle field and have bottled up enemies in isolated and surrounded strong points and redoubts you would have time and the safety to call for and accept EPW and would not shoot anyone hands up for any reason, when transporting them to the rear you protect them from their people, your people and the civilian people.
I have WW2 Veterans who are uncles two landed on D-Day Normandy, one took a bullet to the face from an MG-42 in The Bocage and they state the idea is to kill the enemy not argue about laws, mercy, God or whats morally right. You do not compromise a Mission, a Battle and lose a war attempting to do the right thing.
I have another Uncle who served in the 9th Riverine Mekong Delta during Tet, he stated the EPW deal was totally out of the question, for one the ARVN got the EPW and if they did not kill them they turned them loose, why should that enemy survive a war as a EPW when the capturing soldier might not?
There is a book, by William F. McMurdie called "Hey Mac!" he fought in Europe during world war two.
An excerpt reads discussing the Malmedy massacre.
It reads as such, "Frank Hartzell related the time their armored infantry company captured 150 Germans 30 miles inside German lines. It would have taken 10 men to guard them and 7 vehicles to transport them, not trucks but combat vehicles half tracks and tanks.
Besides which they would need an escort to fight through and fight off Germans that would attack them.
The whole Idea of detaching combat power behind the enemy lines to transport these EPW's perhaps putting the remaining force in jeopardy was out of the question.
They therefore lined up 150 Germans and did their duty as American soldiers and future citizens and in cold blood killed them all."
If as a Polish Warsaw soldier you would have fought and killed NATO troops, killed EPWs if need be and the same would have happened to you.
No hard feelings Snuffy, that's the way war really is.
I am certainly glad it never came to that for me, us and you good Buddy.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/s720x720/10577091_803064873072316_2213883032677332552_n.jpg
ReplyDeletehitler salute with left hand? dude, stop taking that cheap meth.
DeleteYou shoot yourself in the knee with this one Mr.T...
DeleteThat one was stupid.
DeleteHowever... Ukraine is ripe:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html
A whole neo-nazi battalion. If this is to be believed, then I think we can all agree that there's many more who share the same ideology, but do not openly admit it, inside the Ukranian military.
Funny how, at least partially, the russian propagand was right.
They're a bunch of cowards parading as soldiers, being used by the powers that be as cannon fodder in the fight against pro-ruskies. The Aïdar battalion has already suffered such heavy losses it has shrunk to platoon size ... Azov will be similar, apart from a hardcore group of fanatics, who rather terrorize women and children than going in for a real fight.
DeleteMilitarily worthless, but useful idiots if you want to create panic and fear among the rebellious populations in the East ...
You do realize, that most of those battalions are financed and equipped by Kolomoisky, who happens to be an Ukrainian jew, right?
DeleteRather understrength battalion of "volunteers" there was even an info about some couple of Swedes there. They are not part of Ukrainian armed forces, just an warband with dangerous ideology. What is the most ironic thing, sources claim that almost half of those "volunteers" came from Eastern Ukraine and speak fluently Russian. So there is an suspicion that rather large group of them may be in fact ethnic-Russians. It's rather small group in comparison with all those forces that fight there, but indeed can create dangerous precedes for radicals in the future. NeoNazists from Ukraine and Europe fight against terrorist where one of key figure is Russian NeoNazi. Irony.
DeleteYes sadly kolomoisky is behind some of these groups but the man paying for the azov lunies is Avakov not kolomoisky
DeleteThere are guys with neo-nazi views however their number is much less than russian propaganda wants. Sometimes all ukrainian patriots are declared nazis. I know only the Right sector is people with particularly such views.
DeleteObviously there is torture on both side, this civil war...
ReplyDeleteWe have the "obviously" actions of pro-Russian terrorists (or if we believe those info's an Russian terrorists) if you be such kind, can you give us an good proofs that Ukrainian military do similar things to captured separatists? Maybe we just want to be some "obvious" sure as you that they did this also.
DeleteI can certainly oblige ... there's an Amnesty International report about this issue for example: "Impunity reigns for abductions and ill-treatment by pro-Kyiv vigilantes in eastern Ukraine" ... And don't tell me Amnesty has a pro-russian bias please !
DeleteHecate, the "vigilantes" are not Ukrainian Armed Forces. I ask about information of Military ill-treatment or torture of captured separatists not actions of some "vigilantes" idiots.
DeleteFabsther said there was torture on both sides, to which i can only agree. The Ukies would be pretty damn stupid if they left the dirty work in the hands of their regular forces ! Would be very naive to think the "vigilantes" are just free-lancers doing their own thing ... Should suffice to check their credentials to understand they're doing some else's bidding.
Deletedon't want to get into the blame game, as i have no beef in this fight. I'm observing from military/security point of view what happens. And on Ukies side, it's simple, the army does the fighting (and loosing or surrendering) and the national guard + pravy sektor groups + Kolomoyskyi gangs are getting their hands dirty. It's called division of labour and is not really new in this sort of conflict.
Now one could do a similar analysis for the pro-russian militias, but i'm sure you have plenty of material about that side of the story already. But don't be naive, even if you pick a side, doesn't mean they fight according to laws of war, because they aren't and i have nothing but contempt and disgust for armies, militias or groups who fight that way, who ever they are !
I don't have to have proof Ukrainian forces are torturing Russian separatist not vice versus, I know it's going on, it happens in every war.
DeleteMy Great Great Grandfather was southern Militia in 1864-65 War of Northern Aggression do you think when the Yankee got caught or taken he was treated fairly?
Killed out right or tortured to death, the reason?
"The Yankee was on our land."
The Yankee's under Sherman burned, raped, maimed and killed soldiers, civilians men, women and children.
A battle near here had 1500 Yanks walk into a gorge with the sides ringed in southern military and militia, those 1500 are still there the yanks could not even recover their dead soldiers bodies and the wounded and trapped were butchered.
Civil War has no rules but one, win at all cost.
Have you seen any POW camps on ither side.
ReplyDeleteJust so happens, that the Ukrainian government has prisons under it's control, and technically, doesn't need improvised POW camps. Unless you had something else in mind?
DeleteI haven't seen pictures of large masses of EPW's being paraded as captured much less EPW cages.
DeleteThere are many reports of Ukraine personnel being kept as POW by the rebels, with varying degrees of quality of threatment (from inhuman to very good), but zero rebel POW reports. Mostly photos after a battle or two, and not a single word about these guys after.
DeleteOne of the rebel field commanders said in an interview that they don't take nazi prisoners. By nazis he means paramilitary battalions and the national guard of Ukraine.
ReplyDeleteProof: ( unfortunately in Russian) http://ria.ru/interview/20140716/1016094469.html#14077731320853&message=resize&relto=register&action=addClass&value=registration
info, any more info about that Nazi background of that soldier? For now you show not a single one that would related to any type of Nazi sympathy.
ReplyDeletephoto of Nazi gesture is enough for me.
ReplyDeleteWhat Nazi gesture? You have not show one, can you repost link maybe it lost in the voids of internet.
ReplyDeletehttp://s018.radikal.ru/i510/1406/9b/5e2743fa2aaa.jpg
ReplyDeleteit is photo of rebel, killed by Ukrainians, without an ear. I never heard or read that rebels cut ears as trophy.
info, lad... this is not Hitlergruß, not even it precursor Roman gesture. He did that gesture using LEFT arm, both Hitlergruß and Roman ones are done using RIGHT arm. This is very important thing, for neoNazis even very important. You can compare this to other strong gestures... let's say the Christians cross, if you are born in that religion, believe in it and practice it you will do that gesture with right hand, fingers in special position (different churches, different rules in terms of fingers) If I remember correctly Orthodoxs will do this with three joined fingers... I may be wrong, not a religious guy.
ReplyDeleteThe true neoNazi would done this gesture right arm because this is it pretty important for them. We can say that:
A. he can be neoNazi but very very lousy one without any solid sympathy or understanding of that ideology.
B. he just fool out
C. he just show something in the background
D. only he knows what he did and he take that info to the grave.
And info, you know who I'm and what is my relation in historic terms of my nation with Nazi regime right? I was learned from child about them and what they did to my nation, I'm the last person who would mask the information of that gesture. The hate to them still burn hot in my hearth.
I can't deny that he can be just a stupid idiot and this gesture was just a game for him but it looks like he do it with left hand because of AK-rifle , held in his right. Anyway for our tradition – it is a dangerous game.
ReplyDeleteHe would put down rifle or move it to the other hand, this is really important thing to them. But you right, this is a dangerous game. It should not be done for fun or just to fool around in front of camera or in any other situation. Our both nations suffer greatly fighting that Regime and we should know about them everything that it would never happen again. Sometimes we just see something similar and throw accusations, it's just normal reactions. But we are educated and intelligent men info' we should think twice about some stuff.
ReplyDeleteThat's remind me some story's, I had in my collection couple of old unit symbols. One of the precious one was badge of Podhale Rifles, to be more specific 21st Mountain Infantry Division, it has an swastika in it. That symbol as you probably know is old Hindu and central-eastern European symbol mainly related to happiness and prosperity. No wonder Hitler chose it for his party symbol... but the Nazi one was in different position and angle. Now couple of persons that saw my collection always ask me,why I have a Nazi badge in it? And every time I try to explain them the real meaning and history of that symbol... and I'm almost sure, some of them don't believe me. It's like the symbol of Finish Air Force in WWII you will show it to casual people and they will say it is an Nazi swastika.
But today, anything even similar to swastika in our region will create hysteric reaction with screaming "Nazi! Nazi!"
If some one interested in
ReplyDeleteHere info about destroyed armor during Ukrainian civil war is collected.
http://lostarmour.info/armour/
At the moment 84 totally terminated vehicles are presented (all proven with photo)
Russian's, Body and mind of a European, Heart of a Mongol, the temperament of the Hun.
ReplyDeleteCold eyed, cold hearted killers.
Civil war always brings out the worst in people.
I would say the Ukrainian's are just as bloody minded and cruel but that doesn't excuse the acts.
Its not russians, so called "russians" who beat out crap out of Ukrainian army, are Northern Caucasus militants who killed slavic russians in chechnya and now killing slavic ukrainians. They have got immense combat experience during two chenen wars, and now on the loose again, under their new boss.
DeleteDo you REALLY think that simple militia men -- yesterday workers anc desk clerks -- suddenly began wiping out armored columns and shot down combat aircraft en masse? Or have any kind of urban warfare experience?
Now Ukraine sending revolutionaries without training and proper support to die from the hands of "russian" Northen Caucasus militants. Both Ukraine and Russia want to eliminate ukrainian revolutionaries who rebelled against corrupt government in Ukraine, because Russia have same corrupt government and afraid that russian people would follow their ukrainian brothers success and free themselves from the thieves. Its double betrayal, both Ukraine and Russia is benefit from continuous fighting in east Ukraine.
Bingo! Expert in Russian affairs is detected! Would you be so kind to inform us about “Northern Caucasus militants” in details? Cechemians? But I’ve heard about only one Chechenian – Musa -in Donbass region and he was (surprise-surprise!) in Ukrainian National Guard.
Deletehttps://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10423261_750673661658900_6971645078081041571_n.jpg
Ossetinian. I’ve heard only South Ossetinian – and they more likely killed Georgians then Russians.
So I’m very interested in your detailed info. Please….