Thanks for the link Joe!
via BBC
I don't know what to think. Is this guy trying to push the rest of the EU and the US to act on behalf of his country or is this a real deal assessment of the facts on the ground.
I have no idea. I do think the partitioning of Ukraine is all but a done deal though.
via BBC
Ukraine's president has said his country is "close to a point of no return - full scale-war".Again.
Petro Poroshenko was speaking in Brussels, where he said a meeting of EU leaders had agreed to prepare more sanctions against Russia.
Outgoing EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton earlier accused Russia of "direct aggression" in east Ukraine.
Russia denies that its forces are backing rebels, who have been gaining ground on Ukrainian forces.
Mr Poroshenko said Ukraine was a victim of "military aggression and terror".
He said: "I think that we are very close to the point of no return. Point of no return is full-scale war.
"Any offensive action which would be undertaken [by Russia]... would be a point of no return. And that's why we undertake enormous efforts to stop that."
Mr Poroshenko said that new EU sanctions against Russia would be prepared and would be implemented depending on the success of a proposed peace plan.
I don't know what to think. Is this guy trying to push the rest of the EU and the US to act on behalf of his country or is this a real deal assessment of the facts on the ground.
I have no idea. I do think the partitioning of Ukraine is all but a done deal though.
Well they start to be on the brink, mere weeks ago they were very close to push the separatist from Ukraine. They take huge losses but victory was near, then the seps receive massive reinforcement (they even said that, own words from them that they receive at least huge trained man reinforcement) and the attacks from Russia on open flank... well, the Ukrainian start to be in deep shit.
ReplyDeleteNow what is important, still they don't ask for any foreign troops... just weapons. And we are in this ridicules situation when Czechs send ammo for Kurds to fight with ISIS, but don't want to send them to Ukraine, almost the neighbor, to fight with Russians. It's like your neighbor house is in fire and you send your fire extinguishers to the next town to help fighting fire there...
http://inforesist.org/ochevidcy-pod-mariupolem-podbit-ukrainskij-voennyj-kater/
ReplyDeleteCheck the video - apparently, two planes are attacking a Ukrainian patrol boat. I assume, putler will explain that that was actually two of the Ukrainian shot down SU-25s which DNR captured and managed to repair.
They just lost... all it's weapon's load above Ukrainian boat.
DeleteYes, they are trying to pull the EU/US into it so that the country doesn't end up like Yugoslavia, for fair reasons tho...they won't let go stalin's gifts...and their ignorance towards its neighbours hasn't stopped since that country's appeareance, not one moment of colaboration, or normal relations.
ReplyDeleteI suggest that NATO/EU should give them weapons, but enough to keep the show going, not finish it, neither one side or the other.
Are these T72 going to Ukraine or the Kurds? I wonder...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/hungary-sells-t-72-tanks-to-026666/
Shas, you're right, we should be getting the NATO members, esp Eastern European one, cooperating and sending enough gear and ammo to equip a few brigades together.
There is enough surplus gear among NATO member to equip several brigades.
Uniforms, webbing, boots, helmets, optics, rations, etc. could all be used immediately and are non-lethal
meanwhile, Eastern European members could be selecting munitions and small-arms which could be used.
lAnd Ukraine leadership needs to flesh out its headgear. It needs to stop holding parades with well-equipped units while its units fighting in the East are ground down. It should be rotating brigades in and out of the front and not just having parade uniits act as a reserve
"Are these T72 going to Ukraine or the Kurds? I wonder..."
Deleteor to hungarians in Transcarpathia (ukraine) to start something like in the East of ukraine, as putin wants?
We already send them transports of military grade supplies that are not weapons. Blankets, uniforms, helmets, food packs, webbing... private persons ride one and one thru border with helmets and flak jackets. But that's an drop in the sea of needs. The need ammo, they need weapons... Poland can send large number of T-72 tanks that we put in storage after Leo' buying, we can send them spare parts that can put on the track Ukrainians T-72. We can help them more... but for now, no politics will to do this. Maybe something change after NATO summit but I doubt that.
Deleteexactly so. Uncoordinated, infrequent and irregular military charity needs to be better organized.
DeleteSet a goal of x-thousand uniforms, x-thousand pairs of boots, etc. that each NATO member could be asked to contribute, start a regular delivery of non-lethal military supplies.
I'm afraid NATO might have lived past any usefulness. We miIf just the VISEGRAD group got together, they could cobble an armored brigade of older T-72s, BMPs, arty systems together, get them in running condition and ship it the Ukraine.
I'm afraid counting on NATO members like Spain, Portugal, Italy, Netherlands, etc., is a waste of time. They are in no danger and don't care.
We might need to see a new group of Eastern European and Nordic nations form a core of more active NATO members.
Finland
Norway
Sweden
Poland
Czech Republic
Slovak Republic
Hungary
Romania
Bulgaria
Latvia
Lithuania
Estonia
Croatia
All these nations have a vested interest in working together that France, Italy, etc. don't.
Russia use old Divide et Impera tactic pretty good. Most of EU & NATO nations have smaller or bigger interests with them, Hungary became almost a vassal of it.
DeleteOne of military analytic, former chief of staff said that if western European NATO members don't want to act against Russia. Don't want to start to think about them as military danger, don't want to see that we step on very thin ice and further appeasement politics will end the same way as before... give the money to central and eastern members to reinforce it's defense capabilities. We were for long time shield of Europe, we can take this role again. If... this will not end with knife in our backs, again.
hungary? i would put the RUSSIANS on second place if i ever would have to pick between them...hell, in ww2 while in rusia, the germans switched the hungarians with the italians so that they won't be next to the romanians, to be sure things don't blow up
Deleteout of that list you can also scratch the czechs, the slovaks, the bulgarians and i'm not sure about the croatians...
The problem with NATO is
ReplyDeleteGermany was utterly committed, because Germany was going to be invaded.
The UK was heavily committed, because we're stupid
The US was heavily committed, because it was geopolitically handy
France was entirely none committed, intending to fight a fighting withdrawl in West West West Germany and nuke the **** out of West Germany as it fell back.
Spains front line was the South West of France.
Two of the big 5 had no interest in mutual defence,
With the NATO expansion, that situation has gotten much worse. The Former Soviet states are all anti Russian, but they dont really trust each other, and have shown little interest in collective defence.
The Old members even less.
The last time I saw a reasoned justification for keeping British forces in Germany, it was that we had just redone all the kitchens in the housing.
The idea that we could drive 1200km and fight the Russians, seems stretched,
The idea that we would seems outright farcical.
The existence of NATO is doubtful if members don't have interest in mutual defense. The main rule of Pact was, we stay together or die alone. How many forget that simple rule...
DeleteI would question whether West Germany was wholly committed too. I have heard too many horror stories of West German conscripts to convince me otherwise! They may have the kit and numbers but I think the will wasn't present. Or not present in an enough of them to make a difference. Europe did very well out of the UK when it came to NATO; as you point out France's direction would have been doubtful. One of the reasons why I despise the EU is that the UK is paying through the nose iagainnto Europe when Europe really doesn't want us. Arguments that during the UK should have concentrated on her navy and air force with a smaller mobile army for the periphery (modelled after the USMC) really raise the hackles of some ex-soldiers. Yet was the great plan for BAOR? Fall back to the Channel. Delay them just long for the PM to reach Turnstile to give permission for the Deterrent to be used. I doubt not spending on the Army would have meant a much larger RN or RAF in terms of hulls and airframes, there would only be a slight increase in platforms, but both would have been better equipped. If they were going to come it would have made little or no difference if BAOR had been there or not.
DeleteActually other than balts and maybe some poles no one in Europe really has any beef with Russians ,balts have a huge russian population that in some cases became second rate citizens due to pre ww2 citizenship rusophobic laws that were put forward in the 90's forcing batic russians to go trough proces of naturalisation etc. And the same goes for nato again balts ,poland and who canada are the ones pusing they easch have their own agenda.
ReplyDeleteSimple solution that junta in kiev has been avoiding alt the time is direct talks and most likely federalisation of Ukraine,who is to blame the junta that came to power with a coup and imediatelly enacted some russophobic laws and didn't do anything to curb the extreme right groups. Next steep would be inditments in hague war cromes tribunal and indited should include the Eu commison members that pushed ukraine over the edge with imposible choice.
Mr.T that russophobic laws is utterly bullshit... it was bullshit then, it was bullshit now it will be bullshit tomorrow. There was an proposition of delegalization of Russian language that did not came thru constitutional tribunal because it was illegal by the rights of Ukrainian constitution. The spreading this utterly bullshit and absolutely lies that it became under the regulations in force is pure propaganda. And you being an Putin troll is clear with every day.
DeleteOk Just tel me once have they ever tired talks instead of sending thousands of ukrainians to die for nothing.
DeleteAnd what didi they do to curb far right and nationalist groups .
Talk's with who? They put an case fire... the separatist shoot tho them still. They want to give them amnesty if they surrender, the separatist still shoot. They want to guarantee safe corridors for them to retreat to Russia... they reject it. With who you want them to speak of?! With men who say that they will kill every Ukrainian? The talks can be done... when bandits will be throw out from Ukrainian territory. What Russia don't have enough that they annexed Crimea from the Ukraine... they want rest of the country?
DeleteYou would speak with armed bandits that steal stuff from your home and say the kitchen is there own place now or you will take a fraking bat and defend your home?
And who need to carb nationalistic groups? Many of them already died in east Ukraine, in election they receive 1...1%! of votes. Is that the country that is ruled by "fascist, banderist and right sector" when in presidential election the nationalistic candidate receive 1 fucking % of votes?!
Give me a break...
EDIT: typo 1.9% not 1% sorry.
DeleteThat the legalisation got proposed was enough for many in the east. Google, World War 2 Great Patriotic War.
DeleteBecause it's simple sociotechnical trick. The Homo Sovieticus was under constant brainwashing by political propaganda machine. The Soviet Union try and in many cases succeed to create almost mindless drones from people's the suffering the free will and lives of every nation under that regime is unspeakable. One of the strongest element of that is an myth, legend of Great Patriotic War, the name forge by Stalin propagandists to create a fighting spirit in the nation that had none... spirit of nations under Soviet regime was destroyed, executed, send to gulags and hang by it's own neighbors. The people's don't want to die for the party, don't want to die for communism and this is one of many reasons why Reich just ride thru half of European part of Soviet Union almost without problem. Something need to be done... and in that moment the Motherland was born. Don't fight for party, don't fight for communism... fight for Motherland! And they indeed start to fight... the morale goes up and the Red Army start to put resistance.
DeleteThe whole Great Patriotic War is an legend, fairy tale in many aspect but it works for imagination of Homo Sovieticus and it's successors with enormous power. That pride was nurse by propaganda machine by decades, it became a sacred thing. Anyone who speak about bad thing is in is a blasphemer. The most radical feature in it is... "fascism". The Fascism was first ideology that openly condemn Communism and put it as an ideological enemy, for Communism Fascism was first to openly opposite and that why it became synonym of "enemy". This vision of the Fascism=Enemy was very solid and hard bolted in to mind of every human under Soviet regime from born to the end of life. It lost it meaning as the name of ideology... it became a common insult. In time every opposition for Soviet Union was labeled as "fascist". Everyone who was against them were fascist, if you don't agree with them you are fascist, you don't support them you are fascist.
Now in this day Russians reaction of the word "fascist" is reaction of Pavlov's dogs. They start to act crazy and want blood. This is powerful chant for Russians... using Shakespeare words: "Cry 'Fascist!', and let slip the dogs of war". The reference to World War II is strong aphrodisiac for Russians, the gov. know this perfectly and use every time it's need.
Case fire is something waring sides do all the time i have yet to hear that they invited any one to direct talks ,instead they host talks with Germany etc what does Germany have to do with your situation.
DeleteIf bad lagislation is just proposed is enogh to get people fired up, add to that burning some 50 people in Odessa and you really made it easy to be demonized as some nazi faschists and icing on the cake is some actual nazis to boot , you have all the boxes checked. People that got to power simply fucked up and as a resoult lost Krimea and are in process of loosing eastern Ukraine. I say balts and poles you can go and fight russians if you want but don't stir shit up and then call the big brother to defend you. Most of us in EU have no beef with Russia an no interest in Ukraine
Oh you would not be so cocky if we had not stop them in 1920... You don't give a shit when bandit rob and kill your neighbor... don't be surprise when rest of your street will not give a single fuck when someone will came to rob and kill you.
DeleteHow great and patriotic was it for the USSR to invade Finland? Poland? Lithuania? Estonia? Latvia?
DeleteIt wasn't great and patriotic until the Krauts invaded the USSR and the existence of the USSR as well as the Communist Party came into question. Until then, it was just old-fashioned Soviet aggression.
To try and paint everyone who disliked the then Yanukovych gov't as fascist or neo-Nazi is absurd just as it is to call every politician in Kiev part of a fascist junta. It is propagnda being used as a rationalization for Russia to stamp out any pro-Western sentiments within the Ukraine.
If there's one thing one has to admire about pro-Kiev trolls on here (just using the same lingo they use), it's that they are persistent and consistent in their attempts at distorting the truth and conjuring up war ! Keep it going, it's not gonna help much, quite the contrary I'm afraid.
ReplyDeleteBut be that as it may, regarding the score of right-wing parties in Ukraine, it's true they achieved a very marginal result in the Presidential election (1.16% for Tyahnybok and 0.70 % for Yarosh), this score does not reflect the entire truth, nor the weight and influence both these figures have over the current Ukrainian governement and its politics.
First of all, it should be said that the 2014 presidential election was held in very particular circumstances, and that a more genuine reflection of the right's wing electoral strength will be shown in the legislative elections of october. As a point of comparison, i'm referring to the progress that "Svoboda" made between 2006 and 2012 parliamentary elections: in 2006 this party scored 0.36 % of the votes nationwide. In 2012, it was already 10.44 %, which is a landslide increase that shows a deep shift with electorate.
Furthermore, the geographic distribution of the right wing is not homogenous: Svoboda is basically a party with a very strong regional power base in Western Ukraine where they scored between 31 % and 38 % of the votes in 2012. No wonder so many of the self-defense groups on Maïdan square came from the Lviv area ... So saying, we should discount them, because they only got 1.9 % during a very "non-standard" election is a case of embellishing the truth once again.
In addition, to this, one could also say that even though their support among voters may be quite narrow, the right wing parties have a disproportionate influence in the sense that they control key posts in the government minister, and are able to mobilize activist groups who could seriously threaten anybody in Kiev who would step too much out of line.
So if you want to talk the language of truth, just give us the whole story and not just the ones that suit your narrative. For the record, I'll just say that I would find it just as wrong to talk about Porochenko and his government as a "junta". Those - whatever party they side with - who come up with simplistic facts and opinions about good and evil in ukraine know nothing about that country and the way it has been working (actually not working) since its independence !
[Troll mod ON]Oh god, you are Troll, we should not discuss your argument but just repeating Troll until it become reality ![Troll mod OFF]
DeleteSeriously I think the future of this country is the past of Argentina. Just wait for their Pinochet, their bloodbath, their INDEPENDANT revolution, and it will become a democraty..
you could also argue Ukraine is suffering from a Westmoreland syndrom: case of " it's gonna get worse before it's gonna get better" situation
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