Hmm, one has to ask himself what CREDIBLE evidence has NATO shown so far. Of anything what has happened in this conflict so far .. Blurry sat images .. Talk talk . I do not take sides, because when brothers fight each other , you cannot be on someones side ( i know it sound stupid but in this conflict it is like that). Its a massive propaganda mess on the TV and computer networks. Keep just in mind that ukraine has a lot of rich oligarchs, and thoose guys do not want to give up the power circles they have so easy. Same goes for russia , but russia has a vast amount of resources. Ukraine has none. So this is basically a battle between two oligarch clicks, poor thing young men are dying for nothing.
when it comes to the bolsheviks, i don't even need proof, because they did it all the time, even their country is formed by eliminating or assimilating other peoples...also in modern history they carried constant attacks, be it military, terrorist, cyber etc...and the russians as people support all that, it's not just propaganda or state policy..
I forgot something...regarding numbers, besides separatists, russian military, did anyone thought about the russian intelligence already there before everything started? As a total probably we're talking about 10k-20k russian on the offensive, INSIDE.
As a bonus because i've heard being mentioned, did anyone thought of Poroshenko's ties with the russian (also intelligence) before everything started? you think he could have become milionaire/billionaire without aproval?the system was the same...you're allowed to become rich, you collaborate, you lead various activities...all this for the russians ofcourse..
Where is this fantom army so far we haven't seen any real evidence ,if a platoon of paratropers is all than Russians could probably claim that there are thousands of Ukrainian troops operation in Russia as they at had couple of hundet ukraine soldiers in Russia
Or maybe some other military got lost in Poland LOL http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/5,114944,16615626.html?i=0
Foretold already in 2008 https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html#efmAB5ACs
But for now i do not seem much need for thousands of Russian troops to operate in ATO all you need are couple of guys to direct the artilery and MRLS fire . Ukraine is just sending in untrained un-motivated under equiped cannon fodder and so far without any real leadership.
You mix up fighting with playing cannon fodder ,most never seen a separatist just a good Grad barage. How do you think military works, people are pressed into service if they want or not.
So every soldier that was under rocket barrage is unmotivated? The military works on volunteers, professionals and conscripts, depends of system. Many of Ukrainians are volunteers, some are regulars other conscripts. And they all fight, without motivation to fight there would be NO fight at all because they would refuse. Unmotivated army don't attack and push enemy from territory he captured... this is doing by MOTIVATED soldiers no mater if they are conscripts or seasoned vets.
Too late, Russians are there. Even separatists acknowledge that they have support from Russia. 3/4 of it's command structure is made from Russians, they are equip by Russians. The dead and wounded Russian soldiers are taken back to Russia. Even the Russian soldiers say that they were send to Ukraine.
You deny the words of NATO, you deny the words of separatists, you even deny words of Russians... what type of alternative reality you try to create?
"...NATO: Russia still has 1,000 troops in Ukraine..."
Hmmm, as far as I remember, NATO also said that Iraq was equiped with "weapons of mass destruction". Actually, that was the official public released excusion for US military actions, causing loss of life of thousands people, both sides plus wounded, desabled etc. Ofcourse, no "weapons of mass destruction" ever found but decission already taken and War already operated. Now, years later, we all know the unofficial (true) reasons, dont we? So, if NATO say that Santa Claus do exist and seen having a naughty 3some with Snow White & Red Hood, should we all justify military strikes to North Pole?
Then you memory is in poor shape, Iraq indeed possessed WMD in form of combat gas but in less quantity then CIA said. NATO did not fight in Iraq, different members of Pact under leadership of US did, you also seems to forget that.
Yeah... I don't have them in my TV package even. It's funny when I read that statement that someone is watching CNN & Fox if he don't support the info from RT or TASS. Last time when I underline that Soviet Union invade Poland in 39' with Reich some "more Russian then Russians themselves" accuse me that I take that info from... exactly in the same words "by watching CNN & Fox News".
Please allow me tell you my opinion, after having the experience to live in Ukraine for almost 6 years, from late 2007 to early 2014, in Kiev, Zaporizhia and Donetsk and seen from inside these people.
I can surely guarantee, that one year before, NOBODY would ever imagine the unthinkable pictures we all witness nowdays. Sometimes, I watch videos and images of places, streets, neighborhoods I ve been, lived, enjoyed just a couple of years before, now covered with fresh civilian blood and decapitated bodies of innocent people and CANNOT believe that this nightmare is actually happening in reality.
These people, used to live in PEACE working hard on agricultural, livestock or factory jobs. They (the pro-Russian so called "separatists") did not wake up one day and decided to start a War with the new-established goverment "army". When your own GOVERMENT orders the your country NATIONAL ARMY to exterminate CIVILIANS, is not a sign of goodwilling and peace and freedom. You know, its "War" and during operations people die, but when residence areas, HOSPITALS, schools etc are bombed EVERY DAY by INTENTION, is not just "bad luck" or "casualities of War" - Its a CRIME. I do not know about you, but IF the National Armed Forces of MY country, INTENTIONALLY bomb my house, killing my family, I would become a real monster and act the same against them as long as I could stand on my feet and fight.
On the other side, people living in the capital Kiev, DO NOT have any idea of what is really happening to the East. The national TV as a device of mass brainwash gives the false idea of the "glorius" Army who fights against some "terrorists" somewhere. I will not defend one side or another and I will not say that CNN says truth, or Fox News says better truth or RTY or Reuters says much better truth and so on. Its a War and propaganda is in full scale operations nowdays. The ONLY thing that I would like to ask all of you, is how would you act if YOUR country National Armed Forces use deadly force on your family, with NO REASON.
Let us not deceive ourselves, the operational capabilities of the Ukranian Armed forces (as far as I remember) are less than the average central African republic. IF any Russian troops were actually involved in East Ukraine, they would finish the business within only few hours - and THAT IS exactly what Ukraine goverment in Kiev asks for, in order to have an "excuse" to ask NATO help. For all of us who can recall what happened in Crimea few months before where Russian Armed Forces DID operate, they managed to takeover the land without one shot - they did not have to fight, since the "glorious" Ukraine Army / Air Force / Navy put down their arms and start running.
Well I doubt that word "exterminate" is correct... the Nazis exterminate people, Soviets exterminate people. In Balkan Wars there was an extermination of people. The "extermination" describe active and planed elimination of certain group of people on political, ideological or ethnic background.
I live near Ukrainian border, work with Ukrainians from every region good couple of years and I agree that nobody would imagine that actual war would knock to yours doors next year. The annexation of Crimea, armed separatists, war... that would been a totally crazy talking back then.
You really think that in some cabinets the Ukrainian government order the Ukrainian army to exterminate everyone in two oblasts? Do you think that this type of order would be carried out by national military against own citizens? I remind you that almost half of people there are still ethnic Ukrainians. Bombs fell, artillery shells fell, sometimes they hit targets that they shouldn't hit. You imagine that in artillery battery seats men who wait when children go to school to put an barrage there?
If they really want to destroy any building, there would be not a one round here and second there. An artillery battery can turn in to ruble whole sector with constant barrages. Not a single stone will left standing in original place.
The intentionally of that action is highly doubtful. In modern wars even US forces with all sophisticated technology have cases of hitting things they shouldn't. You think that the US government give order to own forces to intentionally "exterminate" anyone because some rounds or bombs hit civilian targets?
And there is reason why this is happen... it's called WAR. Those people found themselves on the front lines, between Russians and Ukrainians. Civilians always hurt the most... but who care about them anyway?
When in my country some armed bandits groups will try to separate region that is territory of my nation and join it to other country. I would demand that my national armed forces go there, restore order and throw out or kill those armed men.
Even Russian soldiers say the are fighting there, don't jump before the line... it's too late to negate this. And there was not only shooting but also dead in Crimea. So, you know... "not a single shoot" my ass.
When I said "not a single shot" it was an expression of "almost nothing". yes, some people died. How many? One? Two? Ten? Thats it. Such numbers are nothing, comparing the operations took place. I was amazed by Ukranian forces (during Crimea situation) surrender without fight or defect to other side. I would expect this "so-called-glorius" Army to fight and die if neccesary against Russians in orderto protect the national land and people live there - but they did not.
On the other side, as for your questions about intentionally shooting against civilian targets. When aprox 150-200 civilians die every day by artillery bombing INSIDE residence areas, when hospitals become targets again and again and again that could mean two things:
A) The Howitzers or MLRS systems personnel are amateurs B) There might (?) be actual intention to hit civilian targets
So let me tell you what I would do, if I was in charge in Kiev, knowing that War is most dirty thing on Earth, and desperately asking for NATO "cavarly" to come and save my ass. I would target intentionaly on civilians. I would intentionaly mass kill families to FORCE my oponent (Russia) to finally react and OFFICIALLY invade in East Ukraine - that would trigger NATO reaction. Do you think that politicians do care about people's lives? Do you think that they do care if 10, or 1000 or hundreds of thousands children will die in order to get the job done as planned? These people been bombed are victims of this War (as you said) but they are not the only one. Soldiers serving their duty on National Army, DO KNOW that they hit civilian targets and DO KNOW that they are responsible for children death. They have no option to do the opposite - its War and YES they DO HAVE STRICT ORDERS to do so.
You know my friend, having a nice chit chat or even a keyboard argument is easy thing to do. Living in Ukraine East and suffering death every day is not. Unfortunatelly, after the THIEF Yanukovits left, he was replaced by KILLER Poroshenko and as far as I can see, no hope for better "tomorrow" for this nation...
You presume that Ukrainian soldiers don't have the slight level of morality in them? The army of sociopaths? That HQ order you to intentionally attack civilian targets, you will obey this order when you had full knowledge about this? That target is civilian in nature, school... there is no military personnel there and you will be responsible for probably deaths of children? You really believe that whole army is just mindless drones without any type of reactions to that actions? C'mon man...
Your point of view "how this should be done" is rather... disturbing.
And remember, civilians die from rounds from both sides. Not that only Ukrainians are shooting there. The Ukraine had not that nice and shiny situation before, as nation they can resurface more stronger after that... or they will go in steps of Germans after Great War, and that scenario is really bad.
Btw: you know that you put a death toll to 1400 people a week and for now the UN, Ukraine and Russia estimate that number of people who died is about 3000. And that's everyone that died there, and that's a lot less then you say...
how they count russian soldiers in ukraine territory and got exactly 1000 estimate ? did they do a pasport check / scan via satellite ? did they do some kind of paranormal remote viewing ? or did they just pull the number / estimate out of their own *** ? and what about the exisiting CIA/BIA/XE/Polish mercs on the ground in ukraine killing the civilian of east ukraine ? there's proof of their existence too..
Hmm, one has to ask himself what CREDIBLE evidence has NATO shown so far. Of anything what has happened in this conflict so far .. Blurry sat images .. Talk talk .
ReplyDeleteI do not take sides, because when brothers fight each other , you cannot be on someones side ( i know it sound stupid but in this conflict it is like that).
Its a massive propaganda mess on the TV and computer networks.
Keep just in mind that ukraine has a lot of rich oligarchs, and thoose guys do not want to give up the power circles they have so easy. Same goes for russia , but russia has a vast amount of resources. Ukraine has none.
So this is basically a battle between two oligarch clicks, poor thing young men are dying for nothing.
when it comes to the bolsheviks, i don't even need proof, because they did it all the time, even their country is formed by eliminating or assimilating other peoples...also in modern history they carried constant attacks, be it military, terrorist, cyber etc...and the russians as people support all that, it's not just propaganda or state policy..
Deleteregarding "ukraine"...hmm...the wheel keeps spinning...
http://adevarul.ro/assets/adevarul.ro/MRImage/2014/09/11/541135020d133766a8090b9d/646x404.jpg?
1410413853
doubting such an obvious russian agression is like pissing against the wind
if we don't work with the truth, the future will hit us hard...
I forgot something...regarding numbers, besides separatists, russian military, did anyone thought about the russian intelligence already there before everything started?
ReplyDeleteAs a total probably we're talking about 10k-20k russian on the offensive, INSIDE.
As a bonus because i've heard being mentioned, did anyone thought of Poroshenko's ties with the russian (also intelligence) before everything started? you think he could have become milionaire/billionaire without aproval?the system was the same...you're allowed to become rich, you collaborate, you lead various activities...all this for the russians ofcourse..
Where is this fantom army so far we haven't seen any real evidence ,if a platoon of paratropers is all than Russians could probably claim that there are thousands of Ukrainian troops operation in Russia as they at had couple of hundet ukraine soldiers in Russia
ReplyDeleteOr maybe some other military got lost in Poland LOL http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/5,114944,16615626.html?i=0
Foretold already in 2008
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html#efmAB5ACs
But for now i do not seem much need for thousands of Russian troops to operate in ATO all you need are couple of guys to direct the artilery and MRLS fire . Ukraine is just sending in untrained un-motivated under equiped cannon fodder and so far without any real leadership.
Maybe they lack training and equipment, but they are definitely not unmotivated. If they would been unmotivated there would be NO fighting at all.
DeleteYou mix up fighting with playing cannon fodder ,most never seen a separatist just a good Grad barage.
DeleteHow do you think military works, people are pressed into service if they want or not.
So every soldier that was under rocket barrage is unmotivated? The military works on volunteers, professionals and conscripts, depends of system. Many of Ukrainians are volunteers, some are regulars other conscripts. And they all fight, without motivation to fight there would be NO fight at all because they would refuse. Unmotivated army don't attack and push enemy from territory he captured... this is doing by MOTIVATED soldiers no mater if they are conscripts or seasoned vets.
DeleteI wonder how many "shooters" NATO has in place.........
ReplyDeleteSeparatist saw Raptors, Abrams, Apache... probably whole NATO army and couple dudes from other 'verse as well. Not to mention those damn Klingons.
DeleteBut you do realize that evidence to the russian presence is about as good as that statment you like so much.
DeleteToo late, Russians are there. Even separatists acknowledge that they have support from Russia. 3/4 of it's command structure is made from Russians, they are equip by Russians. The dead and wounded Russian soldiers are taken back to Russia. Even the Russian soldiers say that they were send to Ukraine.
DeleteYou deny the words of NATO, you deny the words of separatists, you even deny words of Russians... what type of alternative reality you try to create?
You have to separate PR and spin from the truth ,NATO give me a brake their word is just about as trustworthy as the Russian propaganda .
DeleteHaving support is not the same as having thousands of Russian army soldiers on the front line.
Ok, let's talk about truth. You say there is no proof for action of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, but do you have proof that they are not there?
Deleteso... what does than mean to find a truckload of Javelins in Ukraine? That the marines land already?
ReplyDelete"...NATO: Russia still has 1,000 troops in Ukraine..."
ReplyDeleteHmmm, as far as I remember, NATO also said that Iraq was equiped with "weapons of mass destruction". Actually, that was the official public released excusion for US military actions, causing loss of life of thousands people, both sides plus wounded, desabled etc. Ofcourse, no "weapons of mass destruction" ever found but decission already taken and War already operated. Now, years later, we all know the unofficial (true) reasons, dont we? So, if NATO say that Santa Claus do exist and seen having a naughty 3some with Snow White & Red Hood, should we all justify military strikes to North Pole?
Then you memory is in poor shape, Iraq indeed possessed WMD in form of combat gas but in less quantity then CIA said. NATO did not fight in Iraq, different members of Pact under leadership of US did, you also seems to forget that.
DeleteShas, having read all your above posts, I bet you get your info by watching CNN & Fox News
ReplyDeleteYeah... I don't have them in my TV package even. It's funny when I read that statement that someone is watching CNN & Fox if he don't support the info from RT or TASS. Last time when I underline that Soviet Union invade Poland in 39' with Reich some "more Russian then Russians themselves" accuse me that I take that info from... exactly in the same words "by watching CNN & Fox News".
DeleteShas, I am trying to show you the moon on the night sky and you keep staring on my pointing finger.
ReplyDeleteYou trying to show moon in the dark overcast night.
DeleteShas & others,
ReplyDeletePlease allow me tell you my opinion, after having the experience to live in Ukraine for almost 6 years, from late 2007 to early 2014, in Kiev, Zaporizhia and Donetsk and seen from inside these people.
I can surely guarantee, that one year before, NOBODY would ever imagine the unthinkable pictures we all witness nowdays. Sometimes, I watch videos and images of places, streets, neighborhoods I ve been, lived, enjoyed just a couple of years before, now covered with fresh civilian blood and decapitated bodies of innocent people and CANNOT believe that this nightmare is actually happening in reality.
These people, used to live in PEACE working hard on agricultural, livestock or factory jobs. They (the pro-Russian so called "separatists") did not wake up one day and decided to start a War with the new-established goverment "army". When your own GOVERMENT orders the your country NATIONAL ARMY to exterminate CIVILIANS, is not a sign of goodwilling and peace and freedom. You know, its "War" and during operations people die, but when residence areas, HOSPITALS, schools etc are bombed EVERY DAY by INTENTION, is not just "bad luck" or "casualities of War" - Its a CRIME. I do not know about you, but IF the National Armed Forces of MY country, INTENTIONALLY bomb my house, killing my family, I would become a real monster and act the same against them as long as I could stand on my feet and fight.
On the other side, people living in the capital Kiev, DO NOT have any idea of what is really happening to the East. The national TV as a device of mass brainwash gives the false idea of the "glorius" Army who fights against some "terrorists" somewhere. I will not defend one side or another and I will not say that CNN says truth, or Fox News says better truth or RTY or Reuters says much better truth and so on. Its a War and propaganda is in full scale operations nowdays. The ONLY thing that I would like to ask all of you, is how would you act if YOUR country National Armed Forces use deadly force on your family, with NO REASON.
Let us not deceive ourselves, the operational capabilities of the Ukranian Armed forces (as far as I remember) are less than the average central African republic. IF any Russian troops were actually involved in East Ukraine, they would finish the business within only few hours - and THAT IS exactly what Ukraine goverment in Kiev asks for, in order to have an "excuse" to ask NATO help. For all of us who can recall what happened in Crimea few months before where Russian Armed Forces DID operate, they managed to takeover the land without one shot - they did not have to fight, since the "glorious" Ukraine Army / Air Force / Navy put down their arms and start running.
Thanks for reading
Well I doubt that word "exterminate" is correct... the Nazis exterminate people, Soviets exterminate people. In Balkan Wars there was an extermination of people. The "extermination" describe active and planed elimination of certain group of people on political, ideological or ethnic background.
DeleteI live near Ukrainian border, work with Ukrainians from every region good couple of years and I agree that nobody would imagine that actual war would knock to yours doors next year. The annexation of Crimea, armed separatists, war... that would been a totally crazy talking back then.
You really think that in some cabinets the Ukrainian government order the Ukrainian army to exterminate everyone in two oblasts? Do you think that this type of order would be carried out by national military against own citizens? I remind you that almost half of people there are still ethnic Ukrainians. Bombs fell, artillery shells fell, sometimes they hit targets that they shouldn't hit. You imagine that in artillery battery seats men who wait when children go to school to put an barrage there?
If they really want to destroy any building, there would be not a one round here and second there. An artillery battery can turn in to ruble whole sector with constant barrages. Not a single stone will left standing in original place.
The intentionally of that action is highly doubtful. In modern wars even US forces with all sophisticated technology have cases of hitting things they shouldn't. You think that the US government give order to own forces to intentionally "exterminate" anyone because some rounds or bombs hit civilian targets?
And there is reason why this is happen... it's called WAR. Those people found themselves on the front lines, between Russians and Ukrainians. Civilians always hurt the most... but who care about them anyway?
When in my country some armed bandits groups will try to separate region that is territory of my nation and join it to other country. I would demand that my national armed forces go there, restore order and throw out or kill those armed men.
Even Russian soldiers say the are fighting there, don't jump before the line... it's too late to negate this. And there was not only shooting but also dead in Crimea. So, you know... "not a single shoot" my ass.
When I said "not a single shot" it was an expression of "almost nothing". yes, some people died. How many? One? Two? Ten? Thats it. Such numbers are nothing, comparing the operations took place. I was amazed by Ukranian forces (during Crimea situation) surrender without fight or defect to other side. I would expect this "so-called-glorius" Army to fight and die if neccesary against Russians in orderto protect the national land and people live there - but they did not.
DeleteOn the other side, as for your questions about intentionally shooting against civilian targets. When aprox 150-200 civilians die every day by artillery bombing INSIDE residence areas, when hospitals become targets again and again and again that could mean two things:
A) The Howitzers or MLRS systems personnel are amateurs
B) There might (?) be actual intention to hit civilian targets
So let me tell you what I would do, if I was in charge in Kiev, knowing that War is most dirty thing on Earth, and desperately asking for NATO "cavarly" to come and save my ass. I would target intentionaly on civilians. I would intentionaly mass kill families to FORCE my oponent (Russia) to finally react and OFFICIALLY invade in East Ukraine - that would trigger NATO reaction. Do you think that politicians do care about people's lives? Do you think that they do care if 10, or 1000 or hundreds of thousands children will die in order to get the job done as planned? These people been bombed are victims of this War (as you said) but they are not the only one. Soldiers serving their duty on National Army, DO KNOW that they hit civilian targets and DO KNOW that they are responsible for children death. They have no option to do the opposite - its War and YES they DO HAVE STRICT ORDERS to do so.
You know my friend, having a nice chit chat or even a keyboard argument is easy thing to do. Living in Ukraine East and suffering death every day is not. Unfortunatelly, after the THIEF Yanukovits left, he was replaced by KILLER Poroshenko and as far as I can see, no hope for better "tomorrow" for this nation...
You presume that Ukrainian soldiers don't have the slight level of morality in them? The army of sociopaths?
DeleteThat HQ order you to intentionally attack civilian targets, you will obey this order when you had full knowledge about this? That target is civilian in nature, school... there is no military personnel there and you will be responsible for probably deaths of children? You really believe that whole army is just mindless drones without any type of reactions to that actions? C'mon man...
Your point of view "how this should be done" is rather... disturbing.
And remember, civilians die from rounds from both sides. Not that only Ukrainians are shooting there. The Ukraine had not that nice and shiny situation before, as nation they can resurface more stronger after that... or they will go in steps of Germans after Great War, and that scenario is really bad.
Btw: you know that you put a death toll to 1400 people a week and for now the UN, Ukraine and Russia estimate that number of people who died is about 3000. And that's everyone that died there, and that's a lot less then you say...
DeleteAnd we can say bye bye the case fire in Ukraine.
ReplyDeleteSeparatist start the attack the airport in Donetsk still held by Ukrainian forces. It was surprise that this "case fire" was that long anyway.
how they count russian soldiers in ukraine territory and got exactly 1000 estimate ? did they do a pasport check / scan via satellite ? did they do some kind of paranormal remote viewing ? or did they just pull the number / estimate out of their own *** ? and what about the exisiting CIA/BIA/XE/Polish mercs on the ground in ukraine killing the civilian of east ukraine ? there's proof of their existence too..
ReplyDelete