Fourteen soldiers have been confirmed dead after two Ukrainian troops blew themselves up to prevent capture by Russian forces.I consider this an ominous turn.
The two soldiers, majors Alexander Kadesjuk and Alexei Shepeljuk, had been seriously wounded and used grenades to kill themselves during the fierce fighting in the tumultuous border region of Donetsk.
The explosion also killed 12 Russian paratroopers, Ukraine's Ministry of Defence reported today [29 August].
According to witnesses, Kandesyuk and Shepelyuk, members of the 51st brigade of the Ukrainian army, were initially wounded while trying to escape encirclement by a much larger Russian force.
One anonymous witness told Ukraine's defence ministry "there was practically no chance to survive in such hell, so it was decided [by the Ukrainian troops] to break through the encircling forces.
"The majors Olexander Kandesyuk and Olexiy Shepelyuk, who was the commander of an anti-aircraft missiles battery, headed the advanced guard of the breakthrough group. [However] the advanced guard was caught in an ambush."
Kandesyuk was wounded by a machine gun, while Shepelyuk was also hit as he tried to help his comrade.
The Russian soldiers, members of the 331st paratroopers' regiment, then surrounded the Ukrainian troops and tried to take them prisoner.
As the Russian troops edged closer, the injured Ukrainians stood up and raised their hands. Shortly afterwards, witnesses claim one of the soldiers released their grenade, causing a huge explosion.
It is thought that the incident took place on 25 August.
Think about it. During WW2 on the Western front, allied and German soldiers fought hard but capture while unpleasant, was still better than death and fair treatment could be expected...until the German SS committed war crimes, then the fighting turned even more savage.
The savagery made the fighting on the Eastern front extremely barbaric from day one, and we don't even need to talk about the situation in the Pacific against fanatical Japanese resistance.
The combat in Vietnam had the same hallmarks. Any and everything was preferable to capture. I consider what we're seeing in the Middle East against ISIS to be an anomaly. Whether its cultural or we're just not getting reports to dogged resistance to the end...I just don't know...but to see a couple of Ukrainian officer decide to blow themselves up instead of being captured indicates to me that what we've seen before is a walk in the park compared to whats about to come.
I say it too much but this shit is getting real.
Major Hat Tip to Predator Intelligence Blog for the story link.
??? Do you believe this stupid Ukranian lie? Not impressed. No Russian invasion. Such stupid stories are used to conceal impotence of the Ukranian military
ReplyDeleteTrue that, loosing sucks need to invent heroes is strong now in Kiev.
DeleteFor anyone who ever handled russian handgrenades(they are quite weak) killing that many with one or two would require them to all be seated inside an APC or something
Mr. T, not sure where you're getting your info from ?
Deletethe Soviet/Russian fragmentation hand grenades have a shrapnel dispersion radius of about 200 m and an effective radius of about 25 m ... And by effective, I mean high probability of fatal injury to anybody within that radius. So not sure what you mean by "weak" ...
Nonetheless, I agree of course with your statement about inventing heroes/martyrs, etc.
Which one ,the most common RGD-5 is very weak by hand grenade standards ,same goes for RGN ,F1 etc
DeleteOnly RGO comes close to modern hangrenades but even those kill only in 4-5m radius .
These are not even close to a modern granade like swiss HG85 (also used by UK ,NL,US etc)that has about 3 times the exlosidve charge
Yeah Hecate... shrapnel range of 200 meters and effective of 25 meters ?! Not a single type of grenade have that power i whole world. As Mr.T said the most common RGD-5 is also the most powerful army grenade in Soviet and post-Soviet arsenal. And max range that he can wound human is 15 meters. Even the spec ops RGO grenade have max kill zone of 20 meters.
DeleteNow I'm not sure of what grenades you speak of or from where you have that info. I used RGD-5 and I can for 100% put your information about kill range of Russian grenades into fairy tales.
I'm getting my info from the field. Not sure there's a big difference in explosive weight between RGD-5 and HG85, Think it's about 100-140g of TNT in both cases, but would have to check.
DeleteNow I don't want to start a separate thread about hand grenades here, maybe Sol can post an article sometime and we can discuss the whole issue again. But I think there's some confusion here as to designated use of HG85, or M67 for example and other types like F1. It's basically two different weapons, used for different purposes and in different situations.
Just gonna say this: effectiveness of the grenade is not based solely on the quantity of explosive it contains, but also the quality of shrapnel that can be dispersed (both the number and the weight of dispersed fragments). In addition, one has to say that modern grenades have been made lighter and fitted with a pre-segmented shell of smaller fragments, for various reasons. Doesn't mean they necessarily have a larger kill radius, quite the contrary !! But because the fragments are smaller, the grenade has to contain more explosive in order to ensure lethality of smaller fragments through higher kinetic power. Older models, as strange as it may sound to those who don't know about grenades, have a fairly larger kill and wounding radius.
As for shrapnel dispersion, it simply states the radius within which you can find pieces of shrapnel once the grenade is detonated. Has nothing to do with radius of efficiency, which is still different from kill radius ... But the difference is important in forensics especially after terror attacks, as these benchmarks are used to set research perimeter. So much for fairy tales ...
Hecate from the true info from the field, I assure you that RGD-5 kill zone is max 15 meters. Yeah you can have a really bad luck and got hit by already slow moving shrapnel in the eye or expose carotid and that can kill you. I used many times RGD-5 and from field I can tell you... 5 meters you are dead, 10 you are probably dead, 15 you have 50-50 you are wounded or dead. Above 20... you need to have bad luck for be dead.
DeleteOne time in field one idiot wait too long or the ignite was failed... don't know, but RGD-5 explode some 22-24 meters from him still in the air. Not a single shrapnel hit him in the body, one bounce from helmet. One lucky bastard we can say. But from practice I can tell you that RGD-5 don't have that much shrapnel's after explosion, the dispersion is too wide and effective kill zone is pretty small. Also from practice I can tell you that old F1 is more dangerous. Shrapnel's are larger in more tight kill zone, the wooden planks we used for checking damage zones were a lot more damage then in case of RGD-5.
Thx for info Shas, regarding RGD-5 ! I believe your numbers are certainly correctly, given that RGD-5 is what is called an "assault" grenade, just like HG85 or M67. Now you have to understand that during an assault, i.e. an offensive combat operation, your troops are supposedly moving forward (unless i'm seriously mistaken about the words "assault" or "offensive"), which means two things: a) you might possibly throw a grenade a very short distance away from you and b) your grenade might detonate as your unit goes forward. In both cases, what you want to avoid is a blue on blue casualty ... that's why RGD-5 is what you call "weak" (i.e. smaller blast and shrapnel radius) because you want to suppress the ennemy not kill your own buddies !
DeleteCan also confirm your experience from F1, which in contrast to "assault" grenades is what is traditionnally referred to as a "defensive" grenade ! 32 pieces of steel being detonated by 60g of TNT ... better got yourself behind some solid concrete or rock when those buggars started flying around !
There was an "home made" method to buff up RGD-5 kill zone. Unofficially of course...
DeleteYou take some material, small bag maybe, put an butapren (pretty popular synthetic glue) in it, create an solid layer in what you put an metal balls from bearing. Then you wrap that in RGD-5, you receive the kill zone similar to F1 with a lot more shrapnel's in it. But you can also fuck this up using it before the glue dry up... if you know what I mean.
In any case HG85 is much heavier and packs way more punch as it was designed to send shrapnel trough body armor which most older grenades can't. Kill radius on even soldier wearing just old flackjackets is realisticaly in 3-4m range for RGD-5 ,kill probability on soldiers equiped with body armor is substantialy reduced.
DeleteIn any case claim in the article above if most likely fake ,unles guy exploded a 152mm artilery shell or something . Like said its hero time for Kiev junta which is now increasingly desperate ,as their fabled ATO turned into full scale civil war which they are now loosing big time.
Yeah sure, kinda of a DIY claymore mine wrapped around RGD-5 ...
DeleteMr. T, you're right about HG85 type hand grenades in the sense they're designed more and more to be something like the Infantryman's equivalent to a DIME munition. Regarding weight however, older generations used to be heavier.
DeleteYes this is a very interesting story being told by the Ukrainian MOD about how their forces were actually not destroyed by the seperatists, but by 'russia', without any evidence, probably as a prelude to announcing massive losses and calling upon NATO to assist them in pushing Russian Soldiers out of country. Interesting is how they knew this, when the only way to know this story, would be to have been there.
ReplyDeleteCan't believe you or anyone buys this, this is just as good as the story of 15,000 russian soldiers, over 3 brigades, at least one corps, and probably well over a 1,000 combat vehicles, maybe 200 trucks, and of course their would have to be air-defence units as well are in Ukraine, and no can show anything to proove it! They must be invisible! Just like the claims of WMD in Iraq, or Asad using chemical weapons (turned out the MIT/UN reports contradicted US statements), and then it turned out they found a sarin factory controlled by ISIS in iraq. US is full of BS, when it comes to justifying their foreign policy.
The lies just keep getting more and more unbeliveable, I mean really delivering chemical weapons in unguided cannisters, made from muffler components, in rusty truck exauhst pipes, filled with rocket fuel.. That is not just stupid, its inefficent, its dangerous, its not targeted in anyway whatsoever, and it's such a poor delivery method it would never replace artillery cannisters which FYI is what has been used ever since the chemical weapons ban was ignored in WW1. I just, honestly I don't know how people can believe any of this stuff, or trust the people and organizations that spread these lies, its absurd.
Yeah... the spinning coming from Kiev is getting to a whole new level. And your point makes sense. If there's really the reported 14000 KIAs, holding on that information could be used as an excuse later on. That'd be intentionally throwing soldiers to death only to make a case. How can the West morally accept such an ally if that's the case?
DeleteIF it's true, a SAM commander in the region where the MH 17 had been shot which kamikaze himself is weird... I belived they didn't have any SAM there ?
ReplyDeleteBut more, How could have a spotter of the incident guess the unit ? I don't believe they abandon their deads nor fighting with unit patch ? ( we've been enough repeated by pro Kiev Trololol that all sepo were russian soldier without signs )..
Yeah Sol, that story has PR-BS written all over it !
ReplyDeleteI have a slightly different read of it though. Not gonna go into into the details about alleged number of Russian casualties, not their unit, because that is just laughable.
But first of all, even if it were true (which i seriously doubt, as I said), it would be tantamount by Ukies to admitting war crimes being committed by their troops: according to rules of law, the "feigning of a surrender" is a war crime (article 37 of protocol I to Geneva Convention). Second, blowing themselves up that way is tantamount to what Gaza suicide bombers have done ... If you want to be compared to Islamic terrorists, fine by me, but not the best publicity for your cause. Guess the spin doctors in Kiev haven't thought that one over !
This leads me to my actual point: I guess the situation is so bad now for Ukie government troops, that all their propaganda machine can come up with is creating heroes/martyrs, supposedly as an example to follow by other troops encircled by Seppos, telling their own troops to blow themselves up rather than surrendering ... That is just sickening and plain stupid ... Live to fight another day always better option !
I'd much rather they ask their incompetent and corrupt command to commit collective suicide, would be better for everyone !
you do know what you said goes more than a step too far right. feigning surrender is a war crime? maybe i don't know if thats true or not but it has happened throughout history. additionally blowing ones self up to prevent capture has been going on a long time too.
Deletethe issue with terrorist is that they use suicide bombers after civilian targets.
you know better than this comparison
Well Sol, I know because I experienced it. And yes, "feigning surrender" is one of a series of "acts of perfidy" prohibited by the laws of war... Of course it has happened, that's why someone thought it would be good to state one shouldn't do it, because of the implications in other surrender type situations.
DeleteAs for the comparison, sure I see your point: attacking military targets it's not terrorism, fair enough. But there are legit ways to do it. I think a similar scenario in Iraq or Afghanistan (or Gaza), where an "ennemy combattant" raises his hands and pretends to surrender, only to detonate a grenade a few seconds later, killing 12 Marines, would be called a terrorist. It's an act of perfidious treachery.
Besides the whole point of that story is to prevent Ukies from surrendering (creating climate where they will be afraid to get shot at sight) and Seppos to think twice before taking any prisonners, possibly encouraging them to shoot at any suspicious sign, which then will make the headlines under the title "Russian separatists shoot prisoners of war".
I did not hear this outrage from him when separatist publish story how one of them throw himself under Ukrainian armored vehicle and blow it away. Then it was good... when supposedly Ukrainian officers blow themselves to kill enemy now it's an Islamic terrorism style.
DeleteOf course that sep story was an mystification and that man died long time before from cancer but still.
We call this a mentality of Kali "Kali steal the cow - Good. Somebody steal the Kali cow - Bad".
Shas, I still reply to your posts because I like your persistency at defending a cause, albeit with wrong or flawed arguments.
DeleteSo I'l explain: blowing oneself up during an action of war as a means to defeat or to inflict casualty to an ennemy, wether as a last resort or a deliberate "suicide" attack, is perfectly ok by me, and accepted as a legit way of fighting, even though it raises some ethical questions.
So, if, in the example you mention, which i didn't hear of, that Seppo fighter threw himself under a military vehicle during some combat action, then so be it. Legit. If on the other hand, he raised his arms, said "I surrender" and then detonated his device, then, same rationale as the story above: I would call it the same, cowardly, perfidious and treacherous. Good enough for you ? I certainly wouldn't make any difference if it were the other way round. Disagreeing with you doesn't mean being biased, as you're wrongly suggesting.
Just for information, here's an example of the US take on such tactics: "It is a violation of the law of armed conflict to kill, injure, or capture the enemy by false indication of an intent to surrender … Such [act] of perfidy [is a] punishable war [crime]" (Handbook on the law of naval operations, countersigned by Lt-Gen.James Amos for the USMC).
DeleteI would not call a man an coward if he blow himself up to kill an enemy. Not civilian packed bus but armed soldiers who just shoot the hell out his squad and wound him. I will cal this man brave one... because it's easy to die from stray bullet, you need to have balls to blow yourself up in front of enemy to kill them. It's an suicide, and this type of action in Christian society is rather hard to acknowledge.
DeleteA treacherous? Don't give me a laugh... you can't betray your enemy. You can betray your friend, someone who trust you, not someone who just try to kill you and when he saw that you survive his attempts he want to take your prisoner. Don't mention that those men just kill many of your men... I have no idea what would be your reaction for death of your comrades or men that you command, and I don't know what I would do in that situation. But I want to believe I would get the same level of personal courage to take just partial revenge and take as many bastards with me to the gate's of Hades as I can.
I highly doubt that this happen, but I would not be surprised if it would be truth.
You shouldn't make brain-dead statements like that ... you just sound like all those plasma warriors trolling military forums.
DeleteA man who theoretically sacrifice himself to kill the enemy on war. I can respect that... if for you this is a brain-dead statement... well that show what type of man you are.
DeleteShas....once you surrender or make an intention to surrender then you have to stick to it. If your intention was to blow them up or fight bravely to the very last man then dont surrender or dont act as if you want to surrender.
DeleteWhen you decieve your enemy, your enemy has the right to decieve you as well. If you reserve the right to feign surrender and then blow yourself up.........does that give the right to take no prisoners to your enemy as well ?
Japanese use that tactic, Germans use that tactic, Russians use that tactic... not in most cases en masse of course. Americans, British, French, Poles... name the nation and you will find some cases of the same actions. If you receive order to do this, and this is an common action then there is something not right. But when you meet an single action like that... well, we can say that some ideas born in heat of action or from desperation. I still doubt that this situation had place... but I understand that type of action and respect it. Sometimes the need to kill your enemy after he killed your friends, comrades is strong enough to do this. And you need to be or very desperate or have strong internal courage to do this. Or maybe you know that you are already dead... most of heroes as we call them now, are men who sacrifice there lifes in action.
DeleteI guess there's no point in trying to put some reason into you, Shas. Just be careful not to go over to the "Dark Side" !
DeleteAs for what kind of man I am, well I'm alive, I'm not on the brink of insanity and I got a clear conscience, which isn't so bad where I come from, thank you very much ;-)
Well I was always supporter of the Empire... not those rebel scums ;-)
DeleteGonna call you "Shas Vader" from now on ;-))
DeleteBetter this then Dark Helmet :D
DeleteThere have been ALOT of Russian apologists mucking up the comments sections here recently.
ReplyDeleteJust hard to believe any of these stories. Once proof is shown (that is, when Russia really invades and really inflict some serious damage) then everyone will shut up.
DeletePost-Snowden, why would you believe anything the US government, or its puppets, say? Especially when chicken little has screamed "Russia is coming!!!" 2 or 3 times since they took over Crimea. Well, if the Russian army-proper is in Ukraine now, show me some real evidence.
DeleteSandWyrm... and why he should beliebe in Russian goverment, or it's puppets, say? Especially when chicken little has screamed "NATO is coming!!!" or "Fascist are coming!!!" or "Nazis are coming!!!" or "Judosatanists are coming!!!" (yeah I heard that...crazy right?) and at the end... the cherry on the cake "US is coming!!!"... I admit that Russians create good maskirovka. But if we are in the proof's of some actions...
DeleteTell me where are the proof's of those all things Russian propaganda scream off?
- US mercenaries
- Polish mercenaries
- Dutch mercenaries
- Polish Army Unit in form of exactly 800 soldiers with heavy equipment and air support
- Polish artillery unit that was supposedly unloaded in Odessa
- US contingent with Abrams tanks, Apache helos, Raptor fighters, Drones... sepos supposedly see them
- What about those training camps for Majdan activist in Poland and Lithuania? The President Putin speak about them but where are continuation of this story... where are proof's ? Evidence?
And you ask him why he believe the NATO officials, European officials, US officials speak? He would be better to believe Russians?
Not pointing a finger at anyone here but certain laws/understandings are made to ensure that a deteriorating situation does not happen in both enemy camps as regards POW's. If Faction A believes Faction B to be maniacaly suicidal or of a very brutal nature, then Faction A wont spare a single thought to be as brutal as Faction B is percieved to be. I use the word "Percieved" becasue you can see from the above mentioned news article that it is still a rumor/conjecture and not a fact that this 12 man 2 officer feigning surrender happened.
ReplyDeleteBut the rumor/conjecture of this has already been spread throughout both camps. We all remember those torture pics of Ukrainian soldiers that were posted here on this blogpost. That is what happenes when one percieves the enemy to be something that they are not.
If someone feigned a surrender just to blow themselves up in front of my men.......that would not make me happy.......not one bit. I have no idea how i would respond to the next man who surrenders. I also have no idea of what example i might set for my men the next time someone surrenders.
this sound suspisiously like the classic moves by the mercenaries in Carthage's Mercenary Revolt , or the Truceless War.. The mercenaries tortured and killed cartagenian captives and thus closing the option for those weak willed mercernaries who wanted to surrender, since after seeing their soldiers tortured like that the carthagenian wont allow any surrender..
ReplyDeleteif this is tru inicdent (which is very doubtful as the Ukraine MoD has been telling lies and propaganda) then it will make the rebels (no , not russian troops... unless you believed BBC/CNN/NYT) a bit more trigger happy and wont accept surrender easily..
looking at the past rebel behaviour concerning prisoners, these Ukie soldiers can expect relatively benign treatement and eventual return to ukraine proper. so why the suicide ? not logical, the rebel certainly not the muj or ISI..
Oh by the way, Just noticed the guy from the picture, in the article of The New Republic, is actually a member of the "Donbass battalion" during fights in Ilovaisk on Aug. 25th. Couldn't they put up a regularly army unit photo of 51st brigade at least ? Just saying ...
ReplyDeleteIt's now OK for the US to supply arms to the Ukrainian government troops, now that the Russian troops invaded Ukraine.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uisl4gqfIl0
ReplyDelete"separatists"
Well, don't be surprised, but this will be 'fake', 'staged', 'twisted', 'photoshopped', 'not russian', etc. Those two Ukrainian patrol ships sunk yesterday close to Mariupol with planes (or helicopters?) flying over them? That also never happened. Play of sick minds, I tell you.
DeleteTanks, IFV's, one mobile gun, full support detachment with forward repair workshop, water and fuel trucks, ambulance... everything in good condition and without number plates.
Delete"Separatists" my ass....
Fourteen dead? Simultaneous cook off of the other grenades or other ordinance on all the other troops could have occurred.
ReplyDeleteMost Hand Grenades are in the 15 to 5 m lethality zone, the old pineapple grenades of WW2 could kill at 200 m but that was more or less luck or bad luck.
Assault grenades have NO Fragmentation capabilities, they are stun and kill by concussion, usually within 2 m.
RULE NUMBER ONE: No one can throw a grenade far enough.
anyone remember the victory of hezbollah over israeli frogmen in an ambush at ansariya lebanon around the 90s ? from the recollections, it seem the initial hezbollah ambushed triggered a symphatetic explosion of israeli commando 's grenades, thus instantly wiping out a 16 element naval commando..
ReplyDeleteVictory of Hezbollah ? Dont think that's an appropriate term. Anyway it didn't go down the way you describe it.
ReplyDeleteAnd unfortunately we lost 11 men + 1 paramedic, but not 16
It's look like Russians are start to rebel themselves in country. I underline that this is information from second hand from one of my former coworker that live in Russia.
ReplyDeleteThe "street" start to be pretty laud about losses the Russian forces take in Ukraine, because the knowledge that there is Russian regulars there it's look like pretty common. Number of wounded and dead even with government media try to hide is staggering. He send me an info about loss of almost whole company of men from 76 Airborne division from Pskov, they were send to Ukraine and after some fights they were hit artillery barrage with loss of almost 90% of men. Wounded were transported to hospitals, even in St. Petersburg, rest were bury near Pskov.
Everybody that try to investigate those deaths or mystification that try to hide them are threaten or beaten like Lew Schlossberg. There are even information's that FSB "posses" accounts on Vkontakt. There is one history of mother of soldiers that first she put information that her son was wounded and he lost his leg... after some time she post that everything is ok.
Most of dead, died in some kind of accidents, young men died en mass from heat attacks. In the death cetificate there is no place of death, empty space only and people don't have ability to receive pensions. In other cases when the family receive pensions they are visited by some men's and warning that if they will speak about that dead the pensions will be taken away.
Well I can't say that this is all true, but in other hand I don't have the reason to not believe that man.
Shas Vader, I don't think that anybody in his right mind disputes the fact there are Russian regulars fighting with the Seppos. In which form, that remains to be seen. But to claim that a whole company was wiped out but Ukrainian artillery, which is basically useless, except for shooting up empty buildings, sounds very out of touch with reality. I'm pretty sure Russians are being sent home in body bags and Moscow is eager to avoid anybody asking questions about it, especially publicly ... But one grieving mother expressing outrage at the death of her son doesn't mean there is massive bloodshed in the Russian army.
DeleteSeems to me, this is part of the spin directed more and more at Ukraine itself, to prepare the civies for the bad news from the front, which an inept command has been trying to hide for too long already. At some point, somebody is gonna have to explain how come an army of 50 000 has been defeated by a bunch of irregulars, even with the support of 1 000 Russian troops (which is the highest number appearing in NATO estimates as for Russian involvement). Or maybe you suspecting Nato of collusion with Russia now ?
By the way, talking about grieving mothers, why don't you tell us about the sporadic protests that have been observed in various places in southern and Western Ukraine against the 3rd wave of conscription and the losses of the Ukie army ?
When an army has been routed like the ukrainian army has in recent days, the body count is usually very disproportionate ... Meaning high casualty rate on one side, and much less so on the other. I could try and explain why your info seem very unlikely from a tactical point of view too, but I doubt there's any chance of convincing you, so i'll leave that to others ;-)
Hecate the difference between grieving mothers in Ukraine and grieving mothers in Russia is rather simple.
DeleteUkraine do not denied that there soldiers fight in Ukraine against separatists.
Russia denied that even one Russian soldier fight in Ukraine.
In Ukraine soldiers died fighting separatists, Russians and protecting own country. In Russia young boys die from hearth attack, strokes, accidents and gas explosions. Or just don't die... they disappear. It's just the point of acknowledge what you are doing... even if nobody as you right said in his right mind can negate that Russian regulars fight there... they still say "nnnooooo... sir, not a single one". This is the quintessence of Russian politics, the old KGB rule "They capture you by your hand, say it's not your hand".
I get your point. What I meant is Ukrainians are not acknowledging the real casualty figures ... Old KGB style too from afghan war ... The Russians you're right are not acknowledging anything but I still think we're talking about two vastly different figures.
Delete