via RFE/RL.org
The fighting was that intense around Donetsk? Still I don't know. Russian forces indicated that they were suffering heavy losses while Ukraine denied it. Additional the Ukrainian President was just in the US asking for heavy weapons.
So once again we're caught in the murky world of propaganda.
What's true? I just don't know.
"The more Ukrainian army battalions or brigades are brought up, the more troops there are from the Russian Federation," Poroshenko said in a question-and-answer session with Ukrainian journalists.Jesus!
He also said Ukraine had lost 65 percent of its military hardware on the front lines during fighting in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
The fighting was that intense around Donetsk? Still I don't know. Russian forces indicated that they were suffering heavy losses while Ukraine denied it. Additional the Ukrainian President was just in the US asking for heavy weapons.
So once again we're caught in the murky world of propaganda.
What's true? I just don't know.
Just on the recent prisoner exchange you had some 3k ukrainian POWs ,but no sign of russian POWs besides those 10 paratroopers.
ReplyDeleteIn any case this has to be the hardest fought conflict going on Ukrainian army lost more troops in 5 months than western Allies lost in both Iraq and Afghanistan wars combined .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYB4P5s7oTI
Fighting against citizens militia.... right.
DeleteThere's a lot of parallels between ISIS and the rebels in Ukraine. They're both are made up of motivated foreigners who made their way there from other countries, and have (Mongol horde-style) picked up the weapons their enemies have dropped while running away.
DeleteUnlike ragheds these guy knwo how to use heavy machinery ,tanks,artillery MRLS .Even if Russian military is present i doubt that they are playing footsoldiers ,as rebels realisticaly only need good intel and some support in directing fires .
DeleteThere is a report circulating , that from august on ukrainian forces have lost over 200 tanks, close to 500 BMPs and BTRs, more than 700 automotive, and close to 200 MLRS systems of all types. Now that does not idicate how many of this vehicles were abandoned and captured afterwards.
ReplyDelete"He also said Ukraine had lost 65 percent of its military hardware on the front lines during fighting in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions."
ReplyDeleteNot a chance
"He also said Ukraine had lost 65 percent of its (OPERABLE) military hardware on the front lines during fighting in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions."
Ukraine has 2500 main battle tanks, 2500 IFVs, 5000 APCs and 2000spgs
The idea that Ukraine has lost 1,625 MBTs is laughable.
Where are the pictures? Who wouldn't selfie themselves with 30 destroyed tanks?
There is a slim chance that Ukraine has 180 operable MBTs (T64s) and that it has mission lost 65% of those.
thats not a logical argument. there is no way Ukraine could afford to operate and maintain that many MBT's and IFV's.
Deletewe can assume that the actual numbers are probably below 300 MBT's and MAYBE 1000 IFVs. that's in keeping with the force structure for northern europe. modernization and the desire to be a part of NATO might have even driven the numbers lower. so if you're taking a more reasonable look at the numbers then its entirely possible that these losses being quoted are accurate....indeed if my estimates are even in the ballpark then he might be lowballing it. who knows!
Depends how they're counted.
DeleteThey could lose "65%" of their vehicles simply with APC/SPG losses. Or they could be including breakdowns, vehicles inoperable without spare parts, vehicles that ran out of gas/ammo, crew fled, etc.
Most likely, they're abandoning vehicles that the rebels then pick up and use against them. The videos we have show abandoned APCs and IFVs aplenty, with the occasional burned-out MBT.
I would say this is probably the loss of 60% of operational vehicles, not the 60% of whole machine park. That is a lot larger and unfortunately mainly in reserve (broken or rusting in magazines).
DeleteSome of them were abandoned because they just broke down, without any type of solid logistic system they were just leave when they stop working. Other were out of gas ect. Typical situation when logistic chain is FUBAR in the region.
DeleteYeah, I'd be willing to bet that they had maybe 1/5th of their total inventory fully operational when this started, and their logistics, as you say, are probably a disaster.
DeleteThese are claims Ukrainian president made , rebels made claims similar to those before but no one believed. As for pictures have a look there are many on the net tanks apcs trucks burned and destroyed.I bet you can find over 50 tanks destroyed in less than 30 min of web browsing.
DeleteUkraine might have had 2500 tanks in '91 but i doubt that 200 were operational at the start of ATO ,russian tanks unlike western design are a bit easyier to get going so i have no doubt they have been getting many stored tanks to some sort of operational status.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572149/Stunning-images-huge-abandoned-tank-graveyard-Ukraine-machines-come-retirement-tensions-Russia-continue-escalate.html
http://paul-itk.livejournal.com/9681.html
Even well off Nato member like Germany have round 2200 tanks but only about 400 operational and downsizing to 250. Even worse with helicopters navy only has 4 operational , even the new top shit Eurofighter which Germany has something like 110 only 9 are fully operational.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/bundeswehr-unter-von-der-leyen-marode-ausruestung-bei-luftwaffe-a-987940.html
Any yes i do believe much of the gear is destroyed by their own crews ,once tanks run out of gas they are useless so by abandoning it intact you risk facing it tommorow so blowing it up might be the order of the day.
Delete:))) that last thing about 9 oprational Typhoon jets in Germany, is pure nonsence.
DeleteHowever take a look at this :
voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/5028-kiev-schitaet-poteri-boevoy-tehniki-i-gotovitsya-v-nato.html
TrT, agreed. Because Ukraine has huge number of old tanks in tank storages after the Fall of the USSR. For example there are more than 500 tanks only on territory of the Kharkov tank factory which can be introduced into service in 9 months by words of the factory general director.
DeleteTo 1Modeus
Delete@9 months by words of the factory general director.@
Bggg. His predecessor was fried recently for impossibility to “introduce into service” the tanks. He must say so to keep his office)))
If I’m accurate he said “we can MADE a tank in 9 months”.Bggggg/
Ukraine can’t made tanks anymore – only recover old soviet tanks. It means change electricity, recover engines and chassis, operating control systems, put contents in dynamic protection “snuffboxes” and so on. The main problems I guess – engines, old ones lost their durability, producing of new requires money and cooperation with Russians plants (avoiding the cooperation costs additional money)/ We will see how they recover their old tanks, and how the tanks will operate/
And we should keep in mind Ukraine trade very active on “black military market” with soviet weapon (including tanks) – so their storages could contain less weapon then in theory.
Ukraine can and is making own tanks. Kharkov region was one of main arms production region in Soviet Union and it's still major arms manufacturer. But indeed after rising with problems to buying parts from Russia (political, economical, quality... you name problem you will get a case of it in that industry) they start to turn to home made production. The T-84 is fully equipped and build in Ukraine. The full know-how came with production of T-80 for Soviet Union. But most of tanks arsenal is outdated Soviet era construction that lack of parts is not only problem of Ukraine but also Russia or any post-Warsaw Pact nations.
DeleteUkrainians can fully from scratch build T-80 and T-84, T-64 is also not a problem. They lack parts imo for T-72 as they ask Poland to send the parts from our stockpiles to put them again in to working conditions.
Overall Ukraine can build tanks and IFV without problem, but that take time and money. And they really don't have both.
They can repair armor from stockpiles and put it in to action but still Ukrainian logistic chain is FUBAR to the bone.
@Ukraine can and is making own tanks.@
DeleteSo can you share info about Ukrainian producers of tank’s hull from zero level?
@Kharkov region was one of main arms production@
WAS!
@build tanks and IFV without problem@
I guess, you are too optimistic, pan Shas. The first attempt to realize opportunity in BTR-4E supply was screwed up. Ukrainians avoided technology of hulls producing in part of internal metal tensions termination. As the result splits appeared, Iraqi were so happy and denied to accept the IFVs.
And IFV hulls is more easy in manufacturing if compare with tanks hulls. As I know all post soviet supply of tanks from Ukraine were based on soviet made hulls and turrets. It was said Pakistan contract was fulfilled only because of Russian hidden supply of tanks’ guns.
Kharkov industrial area as you know was one of major arms production centers of Soviet Union. Especially the tanks, design bureaus, machine plants, arms factory's. They build from 0 to 100 tank there, without need of supply of parts from different regions. That's a kombinat, the factory's that do everything themselves. After collapse of Soviets the Kharkov had rough times, they produce mainly for Red Army and without it...
DeleteBut Ukrainian still produce weapons, some better, some worst. In case of tanks manufacturing they mainly modify existing chassis. But they also build something from 0. The most bright symbol of it is the T-84 tank. It was design from start by Morozov MDBD, build from parts that are produce in Ukraine from 6TD-2 diesel engine to KBA3 main gun. Yeah we can say that it's design is basic on T-80 (that was also build in Ukraine) but T-84 is made from only Ukrainian parts.
I say that they can build those vehicles without problem I mean they can build them. The have the tech, know-how, industry... everything that you need to build from 0 to 100 ready combat vehicle. The quality control is different thing. And that is indeed not always up to the task.
The most funny thing is that Soviet's hulls and turrets are in many cases... the Ukrainian ones. Kharkov region was major tank manufacturers from start of Soviet Union. Many of soviet tanks were design and build there. Maybe they are not the top notch in modern days, they meet the end of development and modification road, but still they can fight.
From former Soviet block not a single one develop absolutely new tank construction. Russians try to do this now, but we will see if if not will be only next T-72/80 pimp my tank deal.
It takes very little time to make a tank, two years to train a competent crew.
DeleteEven old tanks with a good crew are deadly, a new tank with a half trained incompetent crew is just a target.
Having tanks without crews is still being out of armor capability.
Usually losses are 60% counted from all causes.
A blown up tank K-killed is lost, a damaged tank and a tank with a blown up motor are Mission and mobility kills by what ever cause.
A weapons kill is a Mission kill.
A tank un recoverable or non repairable is a total loss.
To state Ukraine lost totally destroyed, un recovered and non repairable 60% of it's hardware is not logical.
Rule of thumb is 1/4 or 25% are combat related K kill with every other tank is a total crew loss, the rest are usually lost due to misadventure, damage by cause or accident or just plain bad luck.
Then again it may all be rubber tanks and junk placed about the battlefield to draw fire while the real gear remains hidden.
To Shas
Deletefrom Wiki
Initially, the T-80 was confused with the Soviet T-72 by some Western analysts. They are the products of different design bureaus; the!!!!! T-80 is from the SKB-2 design bureau of the Kirov Factory (LKZ) !!!!!!in Leningrad while the T-72 is from the Uralvagonzavod factory in Nizhny Tagil, Russia. They are similar in superficial appearance, but the T-80 is based on the earlier T-64, while incorporating features from the T-72, which was a complementary design.[16] The T-64 in turn was an earlier high-technology main battle tank, designed by the Morozov Design Bureau (KMDB) to replace the T-54,T-55 and T-62 MBT's, used before in the [USSR].
info I did not say that T-80 was design there but produce. T-64 and T-84 were design in Ukraine by as you mention Morozov Design Bureau.
DeleteT-84
Deleteis just a mod of T-80, old materials, old hulls and turrets.
Aye, it's a little more then a simple mod but true is based on T-80 chassis... that is based on T-64/72 chassis. nothing new, just another mod of the same basic design philosophy that originate with T-44. But the T-84 is build without any Russian parts so it's is fully home made by Ukrainians. Just like the Polish PT-91, yeah it just highly modified T-72 but still build from parts made locally.
Delete@But the T-84 is build without any Russian@
DeleteThe number of hulls and turrets are limited. Of course the Irani way of bottomless modernization of none-domestic made carcuss' is a remedy too. But not for Russians. We love tank hordes. Bggg
Aye it's limited but Kharkov factory's build them for Soviets, they also build them for Ukrainians. The machines are there to do this, it is just more cheap to take existing ones, pimp them and reshape them in to T-84.
DeleteTank hordes... the Asiatic horde is still strong in Russian blood? ;D A joke lad.
@they also build them for Ukrainians@.
DeleteI guess no – after Soviet fall. Materials (at least in our new kinds of T-72 family) quality became far away after damn 1990-th. Have you any info about tanks hulls and turrets in “independent” Ukraine? I’m not/
@ Tank hordes... the Asiatic horde is still strong in Russian blood? ;D A joke lad.@
No problems. Our tsars after Golden and Large Hordes fell became single “Chingizid” rulers, and one of Muscovy’s name was White Horde and because of this people of fallen Hordes call our tsars “white tsars”. This name is still alive. Present Russia recognized our connections with tsars’ Russian Empire. So we are White horde (as well as “third Rome”) now, but our stallions are made from steel)))
The T-84 was build in 1994 using elements from T-80 production line. But the T-84 Opłot was build from all-Ukrainian parts, new turret and new high military grade steel. Then they again pimp some T-84 in form of Jatagan and Opłot-M. But as you probably know only 10 Opłot-M enter Ukrainian service from announce 39 units. The last time I check they served in 17th Armored Brigade.
Delete@new turret and new high military grade steel.@
DeleteSure? I would be very pleased with relevant link from you, pan Shas.
Hmm...it was part of large article that compare PT-91M and T-84 with additional versions after Malaysia contract was won by PT-91M. Can't find it now...
DeleteBut you can use the article about T-84 in globalsecurity.org
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/ukraine/t-84.htm
It's pretty solid info about that tank.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete'fully operational' and gave a link on the theme ,plus the report was issued by bundewehr not some bloger., true bundeswehr might be bargaining for some cash but as far as i understood its mising manpower to maintin the gear .
DeleteMr.T, it seems you didn't write it to me.
DeleteLooks like he's trying to beg his way for US military aid to me...
ReplyDeleteSince he's admitting this now (the rebels said something similar during earlier periods of the war), then surely the ukranian casualties are also much higher than initially reported.
The video's I see of destroyed Ukrainian vehicles show them lined up in a convoy type formation, like ducks in a row, ether parked or driving bumper to bumper.
ReplyDeleteThe last one showed tanks, AFV and trucks no air defenders and very few bodies.
As if they had been simply parked with a few guards and got hit sitting fat dumb and happy on the side of the road.
Hell, folks was just walking about the debris field unmolested and unconcerned with the UXB lying about "unfused" and there was no real idea of what hit them. No craters, no penetrating holes in armor turrets blown off and wheels burned maybe.
Doesn't make sense, it's as if the Ukrainian's are letting the Russian's take out their equipment without a fight like target practice.
Good notice. I have some info to suppose – but I took it after one man in personal bla-bla-bla, not in open sources. So I can say only one thing: «MLRS».
DeleteMLRS as in GRAD with submunition HEAT.
DeleteGood call.
@MLRS as in GRAD with submunition HEAT.@
Deleterespect
@Zebra Dun@
DeleteFun thing: I never saw any parachutes on the relevant scenes, it looks like some are burned, some are stolen by locals, some taken away with wind. Good tactics: no enemy’s materials, no proofs. And huge “GOOD BYE” to western-type tanks with their turrets-“wardrobe trunks”. Toyota-wars suck, GRAD-wars rule!
Silk, the most of parachutes in Warsaw Pact stocks are still made from high quality silk. And that is very desirable material from long, long time.
DeleteAsymmetric warfare... nightmare for every soldier.
He should, everyone would hide under bed if someone mastered a kamikaze drone like Goliath. autonomous, smaller, HE pack... that would be a nightmare.
ReplyDelete