A couple of videos are burning up the internet. The theme? ISIS is training children to use real weapons to engage their enemies.
My outlandish scenario.
You're on patrol and suddenly you start taking fire from the front. Your men are well trained and execute a flawless "react to ambush" drill and everyone is good to go.
Firing dies down a bit (meaning you're only taking a sporadic fire at best) and you get eyeballs on the enemy. Much to your surprise you're dealing with 4 teens that appear to be no more than 16 years old and much to your horror you also spot two young boys around 7 or 8.
What do you do Lt?
Explain why you made the choice that you did. Lay out the ramifications of that decision (for example, casualties if you decide against a forceful defense, failure to complete your patrol etc...).
This is new so I'll cut you some slack. You have 30 seconds to decide. No cheating.
16 years is OK, the problem would be the childrens.
ReplyDeleteGuess I would shot the legs and this is it.
i'm playing devils advocate. i've found that there are no right or wrong answers to these things. the deal is that you have to live with the consequences. your higher up wasn't there. so in light of playing the reviewing officer of your after action report i'm asking. you shot 7 or 8 year old boys in the leg with high powered rifles? you do realize that they're going to lose their legs right? you know the local elder is up in arms and we're about to have to pay a whole shit load of money to keep the villagers from mining every goat trail between here and baghdad don't you? so Lt...do you still think you did the right thing?
Deleteoh and i'm cheating here but be advised. you better not waiver about the "rightness" of your decision or you might get an investigation initiated!
DeleteAs you said, there are no right answer, but... Better lose their legs than lose their life.
DeleteQuestion, if you kill the kid you will need to pay the same amount of money. Right?
life is cheap until an American Soldier or Marine kills an a host nation civilian. so yeah you're spot on.
DeleteI think the best answer/action in this case, is the one who brings my men alive and well and the enemy dead or incapacitated.
DeleteI really liked this post, you should keep doing posts with this kind of questions.
A 5.56 x 45 mm M-16 round will blow a childs leg clean off leading to a painful death, shoot for center of mass and make it merciful.
DeleteI have many things to learn....
DeleteThe only right decision is shoot to kill...
ReplyDeleteIt's not popular, not moral, not human friendly, not good, but it the right one. They are shooting to you to kill you, you return fire in the same way. The same problem is with woman's, girls... men will think twice before he will shoot to woman then to men. Not all of course, some culture treat women as cattle and you don't have second though killing the cattle don't you?
I commanding my men, they count on me to lead them and to protect them. They are the first number on my list, shoot to kill I say. I would have nightmares from that for sure, personal and moral guilt, but I still would not sacrifice my men to be killed even if they would be dead by hand of child. FUBAR situation to say at least.
role playing and doing your after action review (note, many feel the way that you do). ok Lt Shas. you did it by the book but we don't pay you and train you to do the fucking monkey thing. we expect you to think! you do realize that you just gave the enemy a tremendous propaganda victory. yeah we have your story and those your men, but they have the street. before we're finished talking here we're going to be facing protests. if we're unlucky this is gonna go worldwide and you Lt Shas Shcmucatelli have just ruined our war effort. you're on the first plane out of here. you're going to Quantico and if you're lucky your career isn't over before it even began! WHAT THE FUCK DID THEY TEACH YOU AT THE BASIC SCHOOL!!!!
DeleteOk, now imagine this news highlight.
DeletePolish soldiers kills 7 old children.
We know the leftist will spam this, what you think is gonna happen?
BTW, I don't think you are wrong, you have a good argument.
I know that this political bullshit will go after that, I would be even probably court-martial. Media would eat me alive, some wacko human rights or pacifist activist would stalk me ect.
DeleteArmy would probably burn me alive on the stack of political correctness. Because in those days soldier job is not to kill enemy but to die by his hand.
But I would know that I did the right thing, my men would think that I did the right thing and family's of that men would also know that. Shit even the Army would know that I did the right thing. And If I need to chose between bunch of 7 years boys that try to kill me and my men and standing in front of graves of my men killed by them just to be good with political correctness... I chose dead children's.
It's brutal, unmoral thing, but I stay with my choice. My men first, rest of the world second. I may don't like it, but this is my choice.
Btw: many years ago my friend that is a Policeman now tell mi terrified thing, on the halls of Police academy all teachers unofficially say to you this. If you will be in the shooting between criminals and you, NEVER shoot first... shoot in the air two times and then take a bullet from criminal, if you shoot him and you will be not wounded or dead... procurator and media will eat you alive. They will destroy you, your family and send you to prison... so better that you will never, ever pull out your weapon.
This is FUBAR!
The world is FUBAR shas, sometimes I really think I'm the one who's wrong, that the pacifists are correct. Then I look at ISIS, and similar organizations and in that moment i realize I'm not wrong.
Deletekill em and protect your Marines
ReplyDelete"close with and engage the enemy", it does not matter what their age or genders are. Protect your Marines/troops first and foremost, that deal with that other bs later.
ReplyDeletethat's old skool Marine Corps Will and you know it. i can't help but think that things are different now. i mean look at the Scout Sniper situation. Amos had joined a Marine Corps that was dropping napalm on villages filled with live Viet Cong but suddenly he gets high and to the right because some dead terrorists get pissed on? yeah bro. shit is different.
DeleteShoot. Try to take 1 alive, to ask him about the nice people who provided them with weapons and training, their names, locations. But other than that - fight. I know it might sound sick, but my instructors always told us that even if you see a pregnant woman with a weapon trying to attack you - you shoot nonetheless. Try to take the enemy alive, not so much out of humanism, but rather for the sake of interrogation, but if that doesnt work, then safety of yourself and your fellow soldiers around you comes first.
ReplyDeleteYou see a gun pointed at you let alone shooting at you....you respond. Especially when entering an area whose people are known to use these kind of unconventional tactics- Ambush, suicide bombings, Fidayeen charges, underage soldiers etc. Even if i catch a glimpse of a teenager or young boy handling a weapon I will force myself not to loose the importance of my and my mens situation and respond force with force.
ReplyDeleteI do have to admit my little bit of cheating here about the capture them post. If possible, try to capture one or two of them for reasons mentioned above by the other blog poster.
Interrogate them to see which village/settlement/org, they are comming from. If its a village/settlement which has been the origin of a couple of other attacks or other illegal activity........cordon them off. Search House to house. Take everyone outside their houses and assemble them outside. Try to take every bit of "Recording Instruments" like mobile phones and cameras from them while doing house to house search and ushering them outside Take away all livestock. Salt the agricultural fields. Take down the mobile signal tower. Take the village head man and elder council and bash the shit out of them in front of the assembled villagers.
The bashed up elder council take their wounds and injuries to a Hospital....Fine. As long as the medical report says that wounds were caused by physical beating as a result of XYZ terrorists trying to make an example out of them.
Deletedrop the teens the young children will disperse it is the same as the Volkstrum in WWII kill the regulars the young boys will break
ReplyDeleteTrow some flashbangs over at them if you have em.
ReplyDeleteIf you are taking fire, you have to eliminate the threat, no matter what age the threat is. My uncle was the Battalion XO for the USMC supply battalion that went to Somalia. He was faced with just this situation, when the convoy he was in took fire from some of the locals. The Marine next to my Uncle had to shoot and kill a 15 year old that was drawing a bead on the convoy with an AK-47. Shitty situation.
ReplyDeleteHad this issue in Afghanistan, its nothing new. I dropped a triple HIMARS mission on the group, changes nothing when someone is engaging you.
ReplyDeleteBlast those little bastards to hell.
ReplyDeleteConsidering they shot some of your comrades in that near ambush, who are flaying and wailing around fighting for their lives following the ambush, the outcome will not be any different than if they were 30 year old MAMs. Business as "usual", being infantry's work, which is terror and unfairness. Im not going to wait until they run out of ammunition or make the faulty assumption that wounding them will stop them from wanting to fuck me up.
ReplyDeleteIts situationally different than a mass shooter, but the same at the same time in that you are dealing with a kid that is a literal combatant. If I was in a mall, and the mass shooter was a 14 year old, I would treat him the same way: shots to the upper thoracic cavity in an accurate and expedited manner. Nobody likes to talk about this, but it needs to be discussed if you are a soldier/marine and/or armed civilian.
The old Jungle trail assault firing course and quick kill range had a line of pop up paper targets circa 1970.
ReplyDeleteMen, women, young and old and children all carrying a weapon, AK 47, PPsH or RPG.
The drill was to walk your fire into the center of mass using the shooting position listed on the sign prior to engaging the targets.
The training method was called Quick Kill which was first taught using a daisy BB gun.
The idea was to quickly acquire and kill the enemy by point and shoot, no hesitation, no second thoughts.
Men, women and children.
I would shoot and shoot to kill.
The first rule of combat is to survive.
It isn't an outlandish scenario at all.
ReplyDeleteAnyone with a gun pointed in your direction is a legit target. Engage legit targets, set up appointments with the Chaplain or Behavioral Health for the guys who might have a hard time dealing with it afterward.
There was an old comic book called "With Sgt Mike in Vietnam" it had an instructor with a pointer and two posters hanging on a wall, backed by Marines in a classroom.
DeleteThe Poster had two Vietnamese men, rice paddy daddy hat and black Pajamas, identical except one was carrying an AK 47.
The instructor was saying, "As you can see here Marines, the enemy VC is highly distinctive and easy to spot from his peaceful counterpart in the boonies" yes, he is the one with a gun.
30 seconds to respond...in combat that is seriously generous. A buddy (Army) coming back from Iraq witness a 12 year throwing hand grenades have to taken out. Gave the whole platoon nightmares but saved their lives. The simple answer is shoot and then call for a medevac and hope they can get the kids out...god help you and the unit if there is someone with a camera to spread the video of grunts killing kids.
ReplyDeleteBut you guys at the "front" in the middle-east aren't the first to deal with this and won't be the last. In WW2 the SS division Hitlerjugend was just what the name translates to: Hitler Youth. Recruited from the Hitler Youth most were 17 but some lied about their age to die for their false god. They also murdered 200 US soldiers in cold blood at Malmedy.
And that thread Solomon has going about Africa? Child soldiers in Africa are very much the norm. They die for tribes, communism, underground diamond cartels and the equivalent of the street gangs with Ak's and RPG's.
ISIS loves child soldiers, and Hamas will send kids to throw rocks at Israeli soldiers then shoot from the crowd of kids in the hopes the Israelis will gun down a 10 year old for the 6 o'clock news in America.
We need to deal with the "officers" who send these kids into battle and try them in military courts and execute them just like we did the SS officers behind the Hitlerjugend and the Volksturm (the volksturm were Hitler's guerillas supposed to fight in the rubble after the allies defeated Germany. We hanged Nazis. Why not these monsters that send out children to die?
You mess some things up lad. The average age in 12. SS Panzer Division was indeed 17 but officers were vet's from Eastern Front. Also Volkssturm was created from men that was not fit for first line and were tasked with internal protection, in 44' it was also send to fight on the front. They were levy en masse.
DeleteYou mistake them with Werwolf the plan of creating underground movement in Germany after it will fall against attack of Allies.
You are correct Shas that the Werwolf were the guerillas, not the Volksturm. That’s what I get for writing off the top of my head. The reason my memory blurred them for the moment was the involvement of the Hitler Youth in both the Volksturm and the Werwulf and the fact both were heavily involved in fighting at the end of the Reich. While the Volsturm was formed as a mix of both those too old and unfit to serve and Hitler Youth too young to serve (13 and up), the Werwulf were a mix of Hitler Youth and SS Officers. At one point some young girls groups were even being given training to possibly serve in the Volksturm although there is no record of their doing so. The Volksturm fought on the front but by that time Germany was becoming the front. . Whether out of fanaticism or fear of Russian atrocities (a reasonable fear), thousands of Volksturm fought to the last in Berlin.
DeleteThe main point I was trying to make was that war being fought by fanatic youth is not new. And more importantly, that when the combat ends that those responsible for sending out children to combat be held responsible. Held responsible with their lives and freedom. A man you sends a child out to die while he “leads from behind” doesn’t deserve 3 hots and cot at Gitmo.
I appreciate you making me refresh my memory on the Volksturm,. Werwulf, and Hitlerjugend . It reinforced another point in my mind: what the indoctrination of youth produces. For the most part, the Waffen-SS may have fought hard against the Americans and British, but there were few atrocities (we wont talk about SS vs Russia, very different). I think it is no coincidence that the Hiltlerjugend division was guilty of executing surrendered soldiers. Malemedy is the result you get with young men not merely loyal to a country, but raised from child hood to believe in an evil cause. If we put Marines and Army on the ground in Syria/Iraq, that is what we will be facing. Fanatics raised as such since childhood and wholly devoted to their cause. That is how you get young boys posing for twitter and facebook holding severed heads. It will be worse than our invasion of Iraq or even the battle against the insurgency. Good lord, ISIS was originally kicked out of al-Quaida…how extreme do you have to be to get kicked out of al-Quaida?
You do your job and keep your mens safety at the highest priority and neutralize the threat. Then you document the shit out of the scene. You want the video and photos of the kids with guns in their hands or near them. If you don't they will be "poor unarmed children" on the 6o'clock news. Now if you can get your guys to defend themselves and make it past the scrutiny of having to fire on child combatants now you have to get your guys past having to kill or shoot at children. Yes, there will be people that say f it they were shooting at me, but most will have an extremely hard time coming to terms with killing a 7yo. In the west we will do anything to protect children and can't even comprehend purposely send children into harms way let alone killing one.
ReplyDeleteI doubt I would actually realise the age of the teens and just see during contact armed non-friendlies and take aim and shoot.
ReplyDeleteThe fate of the kids would likely depend of how they behave.